User:Timothy Perper/SandboxInternational

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Contents

[edit] International Manga Draft

Draft material for revision of Manga article, International Influence section goes here.

[edit] Possible refs

Manga by Wired that explains manga, has some recent sales figures quotes. [1]

General statement about international manga. No sales figures, but mentions 80's. [2]

Japanese government creates int. manga award. Can't find winners. [3] [4]

This reference will go into the main article at the very start somewhere. It has a complete list of all the manga they have. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:23, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
It's in. Timothy Perper (talk) 19:06, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

anime in us [5]

why characters don't look japanese, with mention ofearly anime in us [6]

anime by decade, still no sales figures [7]

Winners are listed in your 4th ref (from mofa). Two are Chinese, one Malaysian, one Australian. Timothy Perper (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

anime in US started with unsuccessful movies and then successful TV shows. [8] [9]

[10] Mentions Akira and manga's beginnnings in the US in the 90's.
[11] Not sure about reliability, but talks about international manga.
Wendy Wong is one of the top people in the field. Timothy Perper (talk) 19:55, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Outline and ideas

Can we get some international sales figures over several decades? Somebody in the Japanese government said that manga and anime are among Japan's great exports -- I don't have the reference.

It won't be hard to document the entry of manga into the US starting back in the late 1980s-early 1990s, with Akira and Ghost in the Shell.

I think two paragraphs of this kind of data-oriented stuff will be useful.

Then we can get to (sigh) "aesthetic influence." Here our problem will be either to document all the fanboy stuff that's in the article (e.g., about Frank Miller being influenced by manga) or to quote general critics and writers about it, like Napier and Patten.

Do we want to deal with "international youth culture" and costumes, cosplay, and college manga/anime clubs?

I'd like to keep the focus as tight as we can, namely on statistics and quotes from newspapers and magazines (Time, Wall Street Journal, Slate/Salon) documenting the "manga explosion." We'll need a list of European manga publishers like Pika Editions and Asuka (I have references to manga in East Asia).

I'm just thinking off the top of my head.

Timothy Perper (talk) 22:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Topic Outline
Markets
United States
Europe
Asia
Aesthetic Influences

[edit] First Draft of New Section

Please don't edit this. Add comments below instead.

See my notes below.


Manga in International Context (Level 1 Header)

The influence of manga on international cartooning has grown considerably in the last two decades.[1][2] Influence refers to effects on comics markets outside of Japan and to aesthetic effects on comics artists internationally.


Markets: United States (Level 2 Header)

Manga were introduced only gradually into US markets, first in association with anime and then independently.[3] Some US fans were aware of manga in the 1970s and early 1980s.[4] However, anime was initially more accessible than manga to US fans,[5] many of whom were college-age young people who found it easier to obtain, subtitle and exhibit video tapes of anime than translate, reproduce, and distribute tankobon-style manga books.[3][6][7] One of the first manga translated into English and marketed in the US was Keiji Nakazawa's Barefoot Gen, an autobiographical story of the atomic bombing of Hiroshima issued by Leonard Rifas and Educomics (1980-1983).[8][9] More manga were translated between the mid-1980s and 1990s, including Golgo 13 in 1986, Lone Wolf and Cub from First Comics in 1987, and Kamui, Area 88, and Mai the Psychic Girl, also in 1987 and all from Viz/Eclipse Comics.[10][11] Others soon followed, including Akira from Marvel Comics/Epic Comics and Appleseed from Eclipse Comics in 1988, and later Iczer-1 (Antarctic Press, 1994)[12] and Ippongi Bang's F-111 Bandit (Antarctic Press, 1995).[13]


In the 1980s to the mid-1990s, Japanese animation, like Akira, Dragonball, Ghost in the Shell, Neon Genesis Evangelion, and Pokémon, dominated the fan experience and the market compared to manga.[7][14][15] Matters changed when translator/entrpreneur Toren Smith founded Studio Proteus in 1986. Smith and Studio Proteus acted as an agent and translator of many Japanese manga, including Masamune Shirow's Appleseed and Kosuke Fujishima's Oh My Goddess, for Dark Horse and Eros Comix, eliminating the need for these publishers to seek their own contacts in Japan.[16][17] Simultaneously, the Japanese publisher Shogakukan opened a US market initiative with their US subsidiary Viz, enabling Viz to draw directly on Shogakukan’s catalogue and translation skills.[11]


The US manga market took an upturn with mid-1990s anime and manga versions of Masamune Shirow's Ghost in the Shell, translated by Frederik L. Schodt and Toren Smith and becoming very popular among fans.[18] Another success of the mid-1990s was Sailor Moon.[19][20] By 1995-1998, the Sailor Moon manga had been exported to over 23 countries, including China, Brazil, Mexico, Australia, most of Europe and North America.[21] In 1998, Mixx Entertainment/TokyoPop issued US manga book versions of Sailor Moon and CLAMP's Magic Knight Rayearth.[22] In 1996, Mixx Entertainment founded TokyoPop to publish manga in trade paperbacks and, like Viz, began aggressive marketing of manga to both young male and young female demographics.[15][23]


In the following years, manga became increasingly popular, and new publishers entered the field while the established publishers greatly expanded their catalogues.[24] As of December 2007, at least 15 US manga publishers have released some 1300-1400 titles.[25] Simultaneously, mainstream US media began to discuss manga, with articles in the New York Times,[26] Time Magazine,[27] the Wall Street Journal,[28] and Wired Magazine.[1] As of the end of 2007, manga is a major component of the US comics market.


Markets: Europe and the UK (Level 2 Header)

The influence of manga on European cartooning is somewhat different than US experience. French art has borrowed from Japan since the 19th century (Japonisme[29]), and has its own highly developed tradition of Bande Dessinée cartooning.[30] In France, imported manga has easily been assimilated into high art traditions. For example, Volumes 6 and 7 of Yu Aida’s Gunslinger Girl center on a cyborg girl, a former ballet dancer named Petruchka. The Asuka edition of Volume 7 contains an essay about the ballet Petruchka by Russian composer Igor Stravinsky and first performed in Paris in 1911.[31] However, Francophone readership of manga is not limited to an artistic elite. Instead, beginning in the mid-1990s,[32] manga has proven very popular to a wide readership, accounting for about one-third of comics sales in France since 2004.[32][33] European publishers marketing manga translated into French include Asuka,[34] Casterman,[35] Kana,[36][37] and Pika,[38] among others.[32][39] European publishers also translate manga into German,[40][41] Italian,[42][43] Spanish,[44][45] and Dutch,[46] and other languages.[47] Manga publishers based in the United Kingdom include Orionbooks/Gollancz[48] and Titan Books.[49][50] US manga publishers have a strong marketing presence in the UK, e.g., the Tanoshimi line from Random House.[51]


Aesthetic Influences on US Cartooning (Level 1 Header)

A number of US artists have drawn comics and cartoons influenced by manga. An early example was Vernon Grant, who drew manga-influenced comics while living in Japan in the late 1960s-early 1970s.[52] Others include Frank Miller’s mid-1980s Ronin,[53] William Warren and Toren Smith's 1988 The Dirty Pair,[54] Ben Dunn's 1993 Ninja High School,[55][56] Stan Sakai’s 1984 Usagi Yojimbo,[57] and Manga Shi 2000 from Crusade Comics (1997).[58][59]


By the 21st Century, several US manga publishers began to produce work by US artists under the broad marketing label of manga.[60] In 2002, I.C.Entertainment, formerly Studio Ironcat and now out of business, launched a series of manga by US artists called Amerimanga.[61] Seven Seas Entertainment followed suit with World Manga.[62] Simultaneously, TokyoPop introduced original English-language manga or "OEL" manga, later renamed Global Manga.[63][64] TokyoPop is currently the largest US publisher of original English language manga.[65][66][67]


Aesthetic Influences on International Cartooning (Level 1 Header)

Francophone artists have also developed their own versions of manga, like Frédéric Boilet's la nouvelle manga.[68] Boilet has worked in France and in Japan, sometimes collaborating with Japanese artists.[69][70] A Francophone Canadian example is the Montréal, Québec based artists' group MUSEBasement, which draws manga-style artwork.[71]


International Manga Award (Level 1 Header)

In May 2007, the Japanese Ministry of Foreign Affairs announced an international prize for manga of non-Japanese origin. The prize was awarded in late June 2007, with Hong Kong artist Lee Chi Ching winning first place. Runner ups were artists from Hong Kong, Malaysia, and Australia.[72][73]


References

  1. ^ a b Pink, Daniel H. 2007. "Japan, Ink: Inside the Manga Industrial Complex." Wired Magazine, Issue 15.11, October 22. http://www.wired.com/techbiz/media/magazine/15-11/ff_manga "Japanese comics have gripped the global imagination," first page. Accessed 2007-12-19.
  2. ^ Wong, Wendy (No Date) "The Presence of Manga in Europe and North America." http://www.rthk.org.hk/mediadigest/20070913_76_121564.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  3. ^ a b Patten, Fred 2004 Watching Anime, Reading Manga: 25 Years of Essays and Reviews. Berkeley, CA: Stone Bridge. ISBN 1880656922.
  4. ^ In 1987, "...Japanese comics were more legendary than accessible to American readers", Patten, op. cit., p. 259.
  5. ^ For video-centered fan culture, see Susan J. Napier 2000 "Anime: From Akira to Princess Mononoke." NY:Palgrave. Appendix, pp. 239-256 (ISBN 0-312-23863-0) and Jonathan Clements & Helen McCarthy 2006 "The Anime Encyclopedia: A Guide to Japanese Animation Since 1917, Revised and Expanded Edition." Berkeley, CA: Stone Bridge Press, pp. 475-476 (ISBN 1-933330-10-4).
  6. ^ Schodt, 1996. op. cit., chapter 7, pp. 305-340.
  7. ^ a b Leonard, Sean. 2003. "Progress Against the Law: Fan Distribution, Copyright, and the Explosive Growth of Japanese Animation." http://web.mit.edu/seantek/www/papers/progress-columns.pdf Accessed 2007-12-19.
  8. ^ Schodt, 1996. op. cit., pp. 309.
  9. ^ Rifas, Leonard. 2004. "Globalizing Comic Books from Below: How Manga Came to America." International Journal of Comic Art, 6(2):138-171.
  10. ^ Patten, op. cit., pp. 37, 259-260.
  11. ^ a b Thompson, Jason. 2007. "Manga: The Complete Guide." NY: Ballantine Books. p. xv.
  12. ^ http://www.animanga.com/Iczer/golden-warrior.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  13. ^ Bang, Ippongi. 1995. "F-III Bandit." San Antonio, TX:Antarctic Press.
  14. ^ Patten, op. cit., pp. 52-73.
  15. ^ a b Farago, Andrew, 2007. Interview: Jason Thompson. http://www.tcj.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=697&Itemid=70 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  16. ^ Schodt, 1996, op. cit., pp. 318-321.
  17. ^ Gilman, Michael. (No Date.) "Interview: Toren Smith." http://www.darkhorse.com/news/interviews.php?id=622 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  18. ^ Of 2918 respondents, 2008 ranked the anime as either Masterpiece, Excellent, or Very Good (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/anime.php?id=465). Of 178 respondents, 142 ranked the manga as either Masterpiece, Excellent, or Very Good (http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/manga.php?id=1590). See also Mays, Jonathan. February 21, 2003. Review: Ghost in the Shell. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/ghost-in-the-shell/dvd. Accessed 2007-12-16.
  19. ^ Patten., op. cit., pp. 50, 110, 124, 128, 135.
  20. ^ Arnold, Adam. 2000. "Full Circle: The Unofficial History of MixxZine." http://www.animefringe.com/magazine/00.06/feature/1/index.php3 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  21. ^ Schodt, 1996, op. cit., p. 95.
  22. ^ For the date and identification of the publisher as Mixx, see library records at http://www.lib.msu.edu/comics/rri/mrri/mixi.htm Accessed 2007-12-19.
  23. ^ "Tangerine Dreams: Guide to Shoujo Manga and Anime" April 14, 2005. http://tangerine.astraldream.net/tokyopop.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  24. ^ Schodt, 1996, op. cit., pp. 308-319.
  25. ^ The 1300-1400 number is an actual count from two different sources on the web. One is the web manga vendor Anime Castle, which, by actual count, lists 1315 different manga graphic novel titles (a "title" may have multiple volumes, like the 28 volumes of Lone Wolf and Cub).(http://www.animecastle.com/c-18291-graphic-novels-manga.aspx) This list contains some Korean manga and some OEL manga. The second source is Anime News Newtork, which lists manga publishers plus titles they have published. The total for US manga publishers comes to 1290 by actual cpunt, including some Korean and OEL manga.(http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/encyclopedia/company.php) Anime Castle lists another 91 adult graphic novel manga titles.(http://www.animecastle.com/c-18307-mature-adult-Graphic-novels.aspx) Websites accessed December 16-17, 2007.
  26. ^ Glazer, Sarah. 2005. "Manga for Girls." The New York Times, September 18. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/18/books/review/18glazer.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  27. ^ Masters, Coco. 2006. "America is Drawn to Manga." Time Magazine, Thursday, Aug. 10.
  28. ^ Bosker, Bianca. 2007. "Manga Mania." Wall Street Journal, Aug. 31. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB118851157811713921.html?mod=googlenews_wsj Accessed 2007-12-19.
  29. ^ Berger, Klaus. 1992. Japonisme in Western Painting from Whistler to Matisse. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. ISBN 0521373212
  30. ^ http://www.bande-dessinee.org/ Accessed 2007-12-19
  31. ^ Massé, Rodolphe. 2006. "La musique dans Gunslinger Girl." In Gunslinger Girl, Volume 7, pp. 178-179. Paris: Asuka Éditions.
  32. ^ a b c http://home.comcast.net/~mahousu/editeurs.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  33. ^ http://www.cafebabel.com/en/dossierprintversion.asp?Id=362 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  34. ^ http://www.asuka.fr/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  35. ^ http://bd.casterman.com/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  36. ^ Kana is an imprint of Dargaud-Lombard. http://www.mangakana.com/main.cfm Accessed 2007-12-19.
  37. ^ http://www.mangakana.com/Univers.Series.cfm?Main=1 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  38. ^ http://www.pika.fr/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  39. ^ http://www.protoculture.ca/Catalog/mangaf.htm Accessed 2007-12-19.
  40. ^ http://www.carlsen.de/web/manga/index Accessed 2007-12-19.
  41. ^ http://www.manganet.de/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  42. ^ Planet Manga, an imprint of Panini; http://www.paninicomics.it/Titolo.jsp Accessed 2007-12-19.
  43. ^ http://www.starcomics.com/uscite.php?tipo=manga Accessed 2007-12-19.
  44. ^ http://www.planetadeagostinicomics.com/manga.asp Accessed 2007-12-19.
  45. ^ http://www.ponentmon.com/new_pages/english/princ.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  46. ^ Wolf, T. 2006 (March 8). "Anime and Manga players in the Dutch market." http://dutch-anime-manga.blogspot.com/2006/03/anime-and-manga-players-in-dutch.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  47. ^ For example, Danish: http://www.mangismo.com/dk/default.asp?page=serier Accessed 2007-12-19.
  48. ^ http://www.orionbooks.co.uk/browse-list-Manga/Manga-Books-and-Authors.htm Accessed 2007-12-19.
  49. ^ http://forums.animeuknews.net/viewtopic.php?t=6282 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  50. ^ http://www.uksfbooknews.net/2007/03/28/new-manga-range-from-titan-books-launching-in-april/print/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  51. ^ http://www.randomhouse.co.uk/tanoshimi/catalogue.htm Accessed 2007-12-19.
  52. ^ Stewart, Bhob. "Screaming Metal," The Comics Journal, no. 94, October, 1984.
  53. ^ http://www.grovel.org.uk/ronin/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  54. ^ http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/review/the-dirty-pair/run-from-the-future Accessed 2007-12-19.
  55. ^ http://bendunnmangaartist.100megs24.com/index.php?id=home&content=nhs/nhs Accessed 2007-12-19.
  56. ^ http://www.atomicavenue.com/atomic/TitleDetail.aspx?TitleID=177 Accessed 2007-12-19.
  57. ^ http://www.usagiyojimbo.com/ Accessed 2007-12-19.
  58. ^ Mishkin, Orfalas, and Asencio 1997 "Manga Shi 2000." Rego Park, NY: Crusade Comics. The artists are not further identified.
  59. ^ http://www.crusadefinearts.com/news/20051130definitiveshi.php. The artwork is attributed to William Tucci. Accessed 2007-12-19.
  60. ^ Tai, Elizabeth. September 23, 2007. "Manga outside Japan." http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2007/9/23/lifebookshelf/18898783&sec=lifebookshelf Accessed 2007-12-19.
  61. ^ Anime News Network. November 11, 2002. "I.C. Entertainment (formerly Ironcat) to launch anthology of Manga by American artists". http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2002-11-27/i.c-promotes-amerimanga Accessed 2007-12-19.
  62. ^ Anime News Network. May 10, 2006. "Correction: World Manga". http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-05-10/correction-world-manga. Seven Seas claimed to have coined the term in 2004; Forbes, Jake. (No date). "What is World Manga?" http://www.gomanga.com/news/features_gomanga_002.php Accessed 2007-12-19.
  63. ^ Anime News Network. May 5, 2006. "Tokyopop To Move Away from OEL and World Manga Labels." http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-05-05/tokyopop-to-move-away-from-oel-and-world-manga-labels. Accessed 2007-12-19.
  64. ^ Gravett, Paul. 2006. "ORIGINAL MANGA: MANGA NOT 'MADE IN JAPAN'." http://www.paulgravett.com/articles/092_originalmanga/092_originalmanga.htm. Accessed 2007-12-19.
  65. ^ ICv2. September 7, 2007. Interview with Tokyopop's Mike Kiley, http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11249.html (part1), http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11250.html (part2), http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11251.html (part3). Accessed 2007-12-19.
  66. ^ Robofish. (no date). "Manga, American-style." http://www.tokyopop.com/Robofish/insidetp/688417.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  67. ^ Reid, Calvin. March 28, 2006. HarperCollins, "Tokyopop Ink Manga Deal." http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6319467.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  68. ^ http://www.boilet.net/yukiko/yukiko.html Accessed 2007-12-19.
  69. ^ Boilet, Frédéric. 2001. "Yukiko's Spinach." Castalla-Alicante, Spain: Ponent Mon. ISBN 84-933-0934-6.
  70. ^ Boilet, Frédéric and Kan Takahama. 2004. "Mariko Parade." Castalla-Alicante, Spain: Ponent Mon. ISBN 84-933409-1-X.
  71. ^ http://www.musebasement.com/about.php Accessed 2007-12-19.
  72. ^ http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2007-05-22/international-manga-award Accessed 2007-12-19.
  73. ^ http://www.mofa.go.jp/announce/announce/2007/6/1174276_828.html Accessed 2007-12-19.

[edit] Comments

(from TP) You'll easily see, I hope, where the citations go. I have not yet added them, but will in the next few days. The wording is for a first draft and is NOT final.

(TP) This is a "working draft." That means that it will change day-by-day, and faster.

(TP) There are TWO Vernon Grants. One designed Snap, Crackle, and Pop for Kellogg's and has nothing to do with the one we're talking about. He is Vernon Ethelbert Grant, but is referenced by Wiki as "Vernon Grant." So his real name doesn't get you to the Wiki page.

(TP) I googled Vernon Ethelbert Grant and got two hits. One was to his Wiki article and the other obviously borrowed from it. The Wiki links are either dead or something is wrong.

(TP) We may have to go to the library for this.

[edit] Comments by Peregrine Fisher

I made some minor changes all in one edit so we can easily see the difference. I reverted them, but we can get back any changes we do like rom this page's history. http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Timothy_Perper/SandboxInternational&diff=178459813&oldid=178389408

Further comments:

For GA and FA, all one or two sentence paragraphs need to be merged into surrounding paragraphs. Basically, the "Manga in International Context" and the Manga in the UK sections.

I didn't get to "International Aesthetic Influences" which may make my first comment superflous.

"Influence refers to effects on comics markets outside of Japan and to aesthetic effects on comics artists internationally." Maybe better demonstrated by refed material than explicitly stated. Summarizing is not OR (which is probably what this is), but synthesizing info is OR (I can be easily persuaded this isn't OR, but I just wanted to mention it).

We can cut it if you think the word "influence" is clear. I'd prefer to demonstrate by reffed material.

"and, with Viz, began aggressive marketing of manga to both young male and young female demographics." Would be nice to have a ref here, or maybe the ref right before it covers it.

Previous ref (I'll check).

"In the following years, manga became explosively popular" Strong wording ("explosively") could use a ref or be toned down.

Fine. How about "increasingly popular"? To be reffed by following material.

"As of the end of 2007, manga is a major component of the US comics market." Ref would be nice. Probably already have one for this, or I can look for one.

It's actually a summary, but the Wired reference would work too.

"For example, Volumes 6 and 7 of Yu Aida’s Gunslinger Girl centers on a cyborg girl, a former ballet dancer named Petruchka. The Asuka edition of Volume 7 contains an essay about the ballet Petruchka by Russian composer Igor Stravinsky and first performed in Paris in 1911.[29] However, Francophone readership of manga is not limited to an artistic elite. Instead, beginning in the mid-1990s,[30] manga has proven very popular to a wide readership, accounting since 2004[31] for about one-third of comics sales in France" I like this but am making a note for clearer wording so I don't forget to look at it again.

Yes, clear it up. Add a general ref if you can find one.
OK, onward. I'm going to edit some stuff, shortening and deleting redundant material.
Timothy Perper (talk) 15:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
Sounds good. I get off work at 3pm this afternoon and will dive in after that. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 16:08, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I added a reference to a Francophone Montreal-based Canadian manga group called "MUSEBasement." That brings the para to 3 sentences. I like adding a French-Canadian group.Timothy Perper (talk) 16:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
GLITCH See if you can fix this. It's the Wiki-linking for "Original English Language" manga. When I wiki-linked it, it came out in red, even though I had copied the original title. I'm off for a while -- gotta dig out the East Asian refs and do some chores. Timothy Perper (talk) 17:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
I've rearranged the East Asian material. It's now more broadly titled, and will deal with markets and artistic relationships. This is an area for genuine specialists, which I am not, not in this area. Timothy Perper (talk) 20:46, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cut the Asia Section

Hi, Peregrine.

I have an idea about the East Asian section — all the material that deals with manga in East Asia. Let's simply cut it for now -- let's not include it in this version.

When the material we have already written in International is included, then we can focus on what's been left out about Asia. Yes, the omissions are serious, real, genuine, all that bad stuff, but I'm suggesting that we don't need it now.

Let me know what you think. Timothy Perper (talk) 00:40, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

It's OK with me. For GA I think this section is broad enough for an English encyc. Probably should be covered for FA or main page FA which should be our ultimate dream. A question for you. I changed "US artists have drawn comics and cartoons influenced by manga." to "A number of US artists have drawn comics and cartoons influenced by manga." "A number of" is normally considered weasel words, so this may not be a good change, but it seems to flow better to me since we back it up with examples in the next sentences. I fixed the Original English-language manga link and delinked Global Manga since it's discussed in the OEL article, I think. As you say, onwards and upwards. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 01:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Your change sounds OK with me, but let me see if I can anti-weasel it. The whole thing is now done = written, but not edited, now that we've agreed not to include the East Asia material. I'll make additional fix-ups but the whole thing is basically in place. Timothy Perper (talk) 13:24, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
OK, I removed the East Asia section, reformatted the headers, and fixed up some other minor issues. The anti-weaseling is OK, I think -- the next sentences give examples. Should we add the Turkish artist back? He'd go right after the French Canadian group MUSEbasement. I'm reluctant to add anything beyond the French Canadians since I don't want to worry about every artist in the world whose blog says he draws manga. MUSEbasement is a real group; I ran across them when they sent some stuff to the anime/manga journal where Martha and I are book review editors. Timothy Perper (talk) 14:03, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
The Turkish artist is at http://www.geocities.com/kaandemircelik/works.html -- frankly, to my eye, his work does not look very manga-esque at all. Much more like standard US cartooning in color and design. Nor does his website say he's a manga-style artist -- that comes from the older material in the article. Leave him out, yes? Timothy Perper (talk) 14:09, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, leave him out. I dn't think we want to use anything from geocities. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 18:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Sayonara, geocities. BTW, I liked the editing changes you made. What do you want me to do with the "access date" to all the websites? For brevity, I want to add "Access checked 12/18/07" or whatever the date is. Then I'll check them all and simply pop that phrase into all the refs that need it. I've made a number of minor fixes, like a Mixx reference in the wrong place and other paltry and annoying errors that creep in. We're in the home stretch for this one.Timothy Perper (talk) 00:23, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Glad you like them. The standard way to say it is "Retrieved on 2007-12-18." as the last part of the ref. Keep up the good work. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 02:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Ready to Go?

I just checked all the links and they're all OK. I added "Accessed 2007-12-19." tags to all of them except a few, which have earlier dates. But they should all now be OK.

I think that's it, barring typos and other garbage. So if it's OK by you, you can add it to the article, replacing all the International material currently in the article (section 4 and all its subsections). The refs won't quote link up -- there are some duplications, like Patten and Schodt96, maybe more. I used a new style for the new refs, meaning that I included page numbers in the footnotes. That means you can't simply replace all the Patten refs with a single footnote; there are now a bunch of them that are all slightly different.

So let's give it a final lookover, and if it's OK, go for it.

Timothy Perper (talk) 14:26, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds good. I'm working 11-8 today so I think I'll put it in after work unless I can speed up my morning process enough. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm a bit too tired to do it tonight, and I work twelve hour shifts the next few days. You might add the text yourself, or I'll get to it as soon as I can. I don't actually have a day off until tuesday, so it may be a while. If you want to do it yourself, you just copy the section from the sandbox, delete the current section and then paste what came from the sandbox. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:49, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
Sure. I somehow thought it was a lot more complicated than that. But I'll try it. I'd rather you look at the new Gekiga section and get a sense of what that's all about rather than wasting time cutting and pasting. So I'll try it. Where do you work? Just curious. Timothy Perper (talk) 06:33, 20 December 2007 (UTC)
A big box electronics retailer. I used to be a computer science grad student but a repetitive stress injury has made me look elsewhere. I'm trying to get into management. Our business model is a bit duplicitous though, so I may try something else soon. I'm getting lots of hours during the holidays, that's for sure. I'll start reading the Gekiga section. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 15:06, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Sorry to hear about repetitive stress... big time bummer... Gekiga has two paragraphs and that's it. Make changes and suggestions. I posted something on the manga talk page that we were working on it, and we can Be Bold and put it in. But first I'll do the International section. Timothy Perper (talk) 16:00, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] OEL refs

From TP talk page.

TokyoPop: OEL and now Global Manga

Anime News Network. May 5, 2006. Tokyopop To Move Away from OEL and World Manga Labels. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-05-05/tokyopop-to-move-away-from-oel-and-world-manga-labels

[Seven Seas Entertainment claims to have invented the term 'World Manga'; see ANN
correction below. This ANN entry claims that TokyoPop is abandoning the term "Original English :Language" manga.]

Gravett, Paul. 2006. ORIGINAL MANGA: MANGA NOT 'MADE IN JAPAN'. http://www.paulgravett.com/articles/092_originalmanga/092_originalmanga.htm

(It says: "The original version of this article appeared in The Bookseller in October 2006.")

ICv2. September 7, 2007. Interview with Tokyopop's Mike Kiley,

Part 1: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11249.html
Part 2: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11250.html
Part 3: http://www.icv2.com/articles/home/11251.html

Reid, Calvin. March 28, 2006. HarperCollins, Tokyopop Ink Manga Deal. http://www.publishersweekly.com/article/CA6319467.html

(It says: "This story originally appeared in PW Comics Week on March. 28, 2006.")

Robofish. (no date). Manga, American-style. http://www.tokyopop.com/Robofish/insidetp/688417.html


Seven Seas Entertainment: World Manga

Anime News Network. May 10, 2006. Correction: World Manga. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2006-05-10/correction-world-manga

[It says that Seven Seas Entertainment claims inventing the term "World Manga" in October :2004. Gives URLS.]

Forbes, Jake. (No date). What is World Manga? http://www.gomanga.com/news/features_gomanga_002.php

[Cited by preceding.]


Studio Ironcat: AmeriManga

Anime News Network. November 11, 2002. I.C. Entertainment (formerly Ironcat) to launch anthology of Manga by American artists. http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2002-11-27/i.c-promotes-amerimanga

Note that date!


General Essay

Tai, Elizabeth. September 23, 2007. Manga outside Japan. http://thestar.com.my/lifestyle/story.asp?file=/2007/9/23/lifebookshelf/18898783&sec=lifebookshelf

[edit] Old Sections on France and Asia

This is from the current article. It may have some raw material we can use with added references.

In France there is a "Nouvelle Manga" movement started by Frédéric Boilet which seeks to combine mature sophisticated daily life manga with the artistic style of traditional Franco-Belgian comics. While the movement also involves Japanese artists, a handful of French cartoonists other than Boilet have decided to embrace its ideal. France is the biggest country after Japan where manga are most sold, with 10 million books in 2005.

The manga style has influenced not only writers and artists, but musicians as well. Turkish rock band maNga [sic] has not only its name derived from the style; their videos and album cover feature manga-style animation and the members of the band have their own manga characters, drawn by award-winning artist Kaan Demirçelik. English metal band Versus Akira derives its name and certain stylistic qualities in the music and artwork from the Japanese motion picture Akira and manga series of the same name.

"This is the East Asia section from a previous draft."

Manga in East Asia (Level 2 Header)

[Note by TP: The following paragraph needs to be abbreviated, but it's the background of what I'm getting at. Peregrine, if you look at this, see if you can do something with it.]

Geographically and culturally, East Asia — Korea, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Southeast Asia — forms a natural market for manga because the area shares a similar history and religion (e.g., Buddhism).(Wong). Also, Japan has long shared deep artistic and cultural connections with China and Korea (I suppose we need a reference for this truism... all right, I'll find one.), meaning not only that Japanese manga, Chinese manhua, and Korean manhwa are the same word etymologically, but that cartoon traditions in the three culture regions are very similar. One result is that study of the art history of the three nations is an area for specialists in Oriental art and history.

[Note by TP: which means, put in plain English, we ain't going there, nohow, nosiree. Maybe 5-8 refererences, and then you're on your own.]

Write this section based on Wendy Suiyi Wong’s work and on the essays in IJOCA. Very large markets.

Ito, Kinko. 2004. "Growing Up Japanese Reading Manga." International Journal of Comic Art, 6(2):392-403.

[edit] Foreign manga publishers, list

(http://www.elresearch.com/wiki/Manga) was a very useful list of non-US manga publishers, including European. It's currently a dead link. I have a copy, but we need another reference. Found them.