Talk:Time Enough for Love

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[edit] Inaccuracies

I removed the paragraph about the ending for two reasons. First I never saw it that way, he doesn't seem to die at the end of the book, so why write that he does? It might be a personal interpretation, maybe. Then, anyway, there are other novels featuring Lazarus Long, set after this one, so there's no need to read To Sail Beyond the Sunset to know that he's still alive. (Besides... I gotta know for sure, I'm him! ;-) ) Lazarus Long 21:59, 6 Aug 2003 (UTC)

You are correct, of course. Lazarus Long does not die at the end of Time Enough For Love, or anywhere else for that matter. This means that there are at least three potential inaccuracies (two for sure, one is possibly true) on the back of the book. First, it states:

Lazarus Long 1916--4272

Inaccuracy #1: He was born in 1912, not 1916. He went back in time to 1916, so it is perhaps easy to understand why some stupid and overzealous editor would list a wrong date.

Inaccuracy #2: He did not die in the year 4272; this year is merely the date when the book begins. In fact, he goes back in time to the year 1916 from the year 4291, so obviously he lives beyond 4272. In a sense the book loops from 1916 to 4291, but 1916 and 4272 are emphatically not Lazarus Long's birth and death years, as is misleadingly implied by placing them directly under Lazarus Long's name on the back of the book.

[Potential] Inaccuracy #3: It states that Lazarus was "so in love with Time that he became his own ancestor." But as anyone who has read all of the works which contain the character of Lazarus Long knows, he never becomes his own ancestor in any of them. This does not mean that Heinlein did not intend this to be the explanation of why Lazarus managed to live so long, but the presence of two demonstrably false pieces of information on the back of the book leads me to believe that there could easily be a third. --Uroshnor 16:44, 3 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I agree completly with all 3. He did NOT become his ancestor. When he went back to Maureen the only times they had sex was when she was already pregnant. And I haven't read anything that showed him going back and getting Maureen's Mom pregnant (a preposterous idea since she said that sex was something to be put up with in order to have children). --Shonsu 18:13, 1 May 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Western Science Fiction

I have added The Tale of the Adopted Daughter chapter to the Western Science Fiction category. This may be set on a distant planet with some peripheral reference to spaceships and genetically-modified talking mules, but it is a classic frontier/western story, right down to the covered wagons, log cabins and squaredancing. --Surgeonsmate 18:58, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The evolution of Heinlein's view of homosexuality

Didn't want to just go on and edit it as I've never done that so far. I wanted to point out the part that says it shows an evolution of his view of homosexuality through his writings. In Stranger In A Strange Land, there is a scene in which a male is invited to a menage a trois with another male and a female. The invited male recoils in disgust/fear/whatever you like, but no one else sees anything really wrong with participating in it. Not sure how this is interpreted or if its of any note, but this section of the article lists The Moon Is a Harsh Mistress (1966) as the beginning of the evolution depicting a negative light on homosexuality. Stranger In A Strange Land was published five years earlier, in 1961. Any feedback?Kristiki 06:03, 6 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Outer Worlds vs Earth

I hardly see how this is relevant to the book really. The only "theme" is the evolution of the rest of the galaxy by removing the best from Earth. The Robot novels were set in the solar system, with a system of government, where Earth and the colonies each had a seat in the government (I don't remember exactly, whatever). The book is as much a Outer Worlds vs Earth novel as it is Tertius vs Secundus. The smart people just give up and leave the stupid behind. So in other worlds, I don't see the connection at all between Heinlein and Asimov, Outer Worlds vs Earth, and Europe vs America. Mobkey 13:50, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

It is more my opinion that the theme should be (as is present in many of Heinlein's books) that freedom is to be found, fairly exclusively, on the frontier. Secundus was founded as a way of getting away from an overcrowded, overbureaucratic Earth. Tertius was founded when Secundus went the same way. Lazarus moves away from his bank and home when the town restricts freedom, threatening to nationalize his bank. I think Earth v. The Galaxy is not the theme. I suspect a rewrite is in order.--Wehwalt 15:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Weasel Words, Original Research, and Opinion

The Plot Summary section regarding the Adopted Daughter story needs to be reworked.

In this story, Heinlein also seems to thumb his nose at contemporary writers, in the person of an incompetent, bankrupt, but self-important colonist who is forced to sell Lazarus the talking mule, but insists he used to be somebody, namely a teacher of Creative Writing. The obvious target would have been Kurt Vonnegut, whom many science fiction authors held in contempt, and who taught the class on several occasions.

"Seems to thumb his nose.."? Weasel words masking opinion.

More important is the phrase: "The obvious target.." If it's obvious, cite it with a Heinlein source, please! An interview, letter, or any recorded remark Heinlein made regarding Vonnegut would be appropriate. Without such a citation, then it's more opinion--and original research, besides--masquerading as relevant encylopedic fact.

Note: The citation currently in the article is not sufficient:

Vonnegut was also lampooned in "Inferno" by Larry Niven and Jerry Pournelle, where he is consigned to Hell in a tomb in a vast empty hall, with a neon sign flashing "So it goes" over and over

Interesting, but probative? And relevant? Not quite.

edit: Section deleted. Thanks Wehwalt.

[edit] Recent addition of Music as a theme

Just questioning the addition of "Music" as a Major Theme. Wouldn't this fit more appropriately under a section addressing the structure or style of the work? Music is not necessarily a theme of the story, but it is used to format the novel.
Jim Dunning | talk 19:37, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

Tend to agree. Worth a sentence explaining the musical terms which head some of the sections, but it is no more important than noting the two long stories, the musings of Lazarus, etc.--Wehwalt 19:48, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

I'm perfectly happy to have the Music material I'd added reinstated in some new "section addressing the structure or style of the work" as described above, or to leave it out; your call, folks. How important the musical aspects are to the novel is an interesting topic. I have long thought that Heinlein's adoption of the Variations on a Theme label for a great many of the chapters is exactly what helped the book to become so wayward; these chapters would have been equally good or bad without such a label, and indeed he never says what the "Theme" is (it can't be "Love" because that's one of the variation chapter titles). However, the use of "Da Capo" for the Kansas City 1916 chapters should be noted in the TEFL entry, even if the other musical terms are not, because an unwritten story by that name had appeared in the Future History chart's first few versions, and this section can be presumed to descend from his idea of what that story would have consisted of. [PS: I'd read the first-edition paperback in 1974 when I was in college, liked it then, loathed it in retrospect (except for the Notebooks chapters), and finally was paid to read it again as copyeditor of Meisha Merlin's aborted version of the Virginia Edition (see the Heinlein Bibliography entry). Also I have two music degrees, hence my impulse to mention the musical aspects in the TEFL entry.] Gottacook (talk) 07:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lots of opinions in this article...

...and few references. For example, I utterly fail to see how homosexuality is considered "defective" in "Moon". I remember that it is mentioned: The society on the moon has far fewer women than men; and the protagonist mentions that one result is that men turn to other men. The protagonist's opinion, however, is that most men want a real female. I don't think anybody would want to argue with this?

So: Bottom line... this article needs a lot of work. -- Nils Jeppe (talk) 01:57, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I think the point is, that it marks a midpoint in the evolution of Heinlein's expressed view of homosexuality. He still doesn't accept it, it is still second best, but necessary. The people who prefer homosexuality make no appearance in the book. The "defective" comes from Stranger, and is discussed ad nauseum in various articles.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:25, 18 November 2007 (UTC)