Talk:Tiberius Gracchus
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Tiberius Gracchus was cool!
this article needs to be cleaned up. What's the code for that?
- It's {{cleanupdate}} but it doesn't look like it needs that much cleanup to me. Also Tiberius Gracchus is totally awesome. Ashibaka tock 03:22, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
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[edit] Octavius = Augustus?
Is the Octavius mentioned in the article the same as Octavian, the future Caesar Augustus? If so, that should definitely be mentioned.C.M.24.21.139.41 15:06, 7 December 2006 (UTC)
->> No, it was a different Octavius, whose main claim to fame was this incident. 59.154.24.147 15:28, 24 December 2006 (UTC)Ashavah
->>>> Octavius is a family/clan name.
->>> king is the wrong word to use, wouldnt they of used "dictator" or something? King isnt a title romans use. i noticed you referenced that from Ancient rise & fall of rome which isnt 100% historicaly accurate., Marku.
Dictatorship was a legal office in the Roman government, that didn't imply for the Romans all the negative connotations it has today, while monarchy carried many of those sentiments. The Republic replaced the Roman monarchy, and in light of that, accusing opponents of attempting to be "king" was used as a political invective. The Jackal God 23:11, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
In fact, it was for precisely this reason that the word 'king' (in Latin, 'rex') was used of Tiberius Gracchus; it was a highly politically loaded term, and the accusation that he wished to be king was used to defend those who killed him. The Romans feared kingship, while for them at this time a dictator was somebody given special office to protect the state in times of national emergency. Ashavah 14:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
It was quite usual for members of the Senate to accuse those who threatened their authority and were overly ambitious of attempting to become a monarch ('rex') because of the negative connotations it posses. Also the term Dictator should not be used as it was a defined constitutional position during the Roman Republic. A better term that is more often used is trying to obtain 'Dominatio.' 3 March 2008 Imperator101
[edit] Gracchus was not necessarily a reformer
There are strong arguments that Gracchus was simply attempting to enhance his power and that of the Claudii, rather than a genuine reformer. This should be discussed somewhere in the article. It should also be noted that reelection as a tribune was not against the letter of the law, as opposed to reelection in other offices.
si gracchus ay isang pleabean —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.213.93.113 (talk) 07:37, 19 October 2007 (UTC)
True, but all arguments that "simply" anything in this period tend to come to grief. I think the article strikes a reasonable balance. The development of his thinking from 137 (when the Numantia incident must have come out of the blue as a shattering humiliation) to 133 is just unknowable, and there wouldn't be space in an article like this to look at the arguments in detail. But it might be fair to define "popular" agitation at Rome somewhere, pointing out that it was a process whereby leading aristocrats sought the direct support of the people in their intra-aristocratic competition. Otherwise people tend to think of the "popular" politicians as democratic reformers in the modern sense, which they certainly were not. 85.179.9.164 (talk) 08:15, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
[edit] Opposition section
Would it be possible to have some references to support the remarks about the reasons behind the opposition of Nasica and Aemilianus? I'm interested to read about the dispute over a piece of land with Nasica, and I haven't read of it before. Wonder where the reference is from. Also, in the case of Aemilianus, I'm aware that the marriage with Sempronia was said not to be "happy" (in particular, according to later historians, Sempronia was not what they defined as a "good wife" because she did not provide Aemilianus with children), but I'm not aware of their having divorced. Indeed, Sempronia was still living with Aemilianus when the latter died in 129 BC, prompting some fleeting suspicion that she might have assassinated him, though there seem to be no grounds for believing this to be more than salacious gossip. 85.179.9.164 (talk) 07:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)
I also dislike the phrase "Tiberius convinced [Aemilianus] to marry... Sempronia". The marriage was a perfectly straightforward deal; the Cornelii Scipiones and Sempronii Gracchi were very prominent families (or branches of one family), and the marriage renewed (or attempted and failed to renew) an accord between them that had begun in the previous generation with the marriage of Tiberius senior to Cornelia Major. The word "convinced" makes it sound as though Tiberius put one over on Aemilianus. Tiberius was NOT an unknown "upstart". He was a descendant of TWO extremely ancient and noble families. I'm uneasy about this whole point. It sounds like lazy, tabloid history to me. So I'd at least like to see some references to back it up. 85.179.9.164 (talk) 08:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC
[edit] Birth Date
I'm reading "From the Gracchi to Nero" by H.H. Scullard, which lists Tiberius' birth date (on page 24 of the fifth edition paperback) as "born circa 163," not the listed 168. Scullard also states on the same page that Tiberius' younger brother Gaius was "some 10 years younger." "Circa 163" minus "about 10 years" would be a better match for the listed birth date for Gaius on his page (154) than the current listed 15 years. Anyone? 118.7.178.130 (talk) 12:47, 27 April 2008 (UTC)
