Talk:Three spot gourami

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[edit] Proposed move from Three spot gourami to Trichogaster trichopterus

The species has a multitude of common names, should we consider moving the article to Trichogaster trichopterus? MidgleyDJ 11:23, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi David. "Three spot gourami" is an appropriate common name used to refer to this fish as a species. Most other common names refer to a specific color morph. In addition, FishBase record shows that this name is the legal and designated common name in many English-speaking countries. I think this name is perfectly fine as the title for this fish. --Melanochromis 11:44, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Melanochromis, I'm not sure I know what you mean by legal, designated common name. I agree re: the use of gold, opaline as these colour morphs are certainly not useful names. "Three-spot gourami" is never used in Australia. The fish are either blue or gold (or sometimes "opaline" ie: greyish) and are sold just by their colour names "blue gourami", "gold gourami", "opaline gourami". The blue-ish form is the naturally occuring colour - therefore "blue gourami" is as good a common name as "three-spot gourami". Baensch lists both names, as does fishbase - "blue gourami", like "three-spot gourami", is used only by one species (T. trichopterus). This certainly seems ambiguous to me. There is, however, only one Trichogaster trichopterus :). Anyone else? MidgleyDJ 12:30, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

I can personally guarantee you the "blue gourami" is NOT the naturally occuring color. It might be "a" natural morph, but the common wild ones are the brownish-grayish fish. I knew this because this was one of the fish I collected from the wild when I was a kid. Re:legal and designated common name. "Three spot gourami" is the species legal common name designated by Food and Agriculture Organization and American Fishery Society. "Blue gourami" on the other hand refers to the bluish morph of this fish, not the whole species. And this is one of the most common and well-known labyrinth fish, both as food source and ornamental fish. It doesn't make much sense to use the Latin name as title for such a common fish. --Melanochromis 12:57, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Melanochromis - The "blue gourami" sold here in aquariums are "grey-ish" (much like blue cats). I disagree with the sentiment re: FAO & American Fishery society - neither make "legal" or otherwise common names. There is, to my knowledge, no such thing as a legal common name for fish. David. MidgleyDJ 13:43, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Well if you really believe there's no such thing as a "legal" common name, you probably should contact Fishbase, AFS, and various fisheries organizations and ask them to stop using such term . Re: the blue morph. Have you seen any non-aquarium Three spot gourami? They are not blue at all. --Melanochromis 18:01, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Melanochromis, I'm happy to accept this common name if others also feel it is in wide enough usage. Regardless, I stress FishBase, AFS and fisheries dont make "legal" common names in any sense. Common names are just that, names in common use. The trouble is - sometimes common use is limited to a small group of people. As I've said previously, in the Australian aquarium hobby the blue gourami is never called the Three-spot gourami, obviously if this is limited to Australia then we are the odd ones out and it's probably not worth changing the name. The species is not widely consumed (outside it's natural range) as a food fish, so I think it's main "human usage" would be in the aquarium hobby -- but I am prepared to be corrected if one can buy rollmops with gourami fillets in Norway :-). Cheers, David. MidgleyDJ 21:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Mostly pretty well covered here. The natural form is indeed brown. But some comments (partly from Vierke 1988):

• Blue gourami -- Described by Ladiges (1933) as T. trichopterus sumatranus, and believed to be endemic to Sumatra. Definitely a natural form though its exact range in the wild seems uncertain.
• Cosby gourami -- Artificial form of blue gourami T. trichopterus sumatranus bred by an American by the name of Cosby.
• Gold gourami -- Artificial form by breeding a form of "brown" gourami without the blue so only the yellow is left behind, hence T. trichopterus trichopterus if anything.
• Silver gourami -- Another artificial form of T. trichopterus trichopterus not often sold because it isn't very pretty. Not to be confused with T. microlepis.
• Lavender gourami -- Another artificial form of T. trichopterus trichopterus.

The fishkeeping press prefers the use of "three spot gourami" as the common name to avoid people believing that these different varieties are distinct species. But obviously traders and retailers continue to use the individual (but admittedly more descriptive) common names of blue gourami, yellow gourami, etc. For what it's worth, I think this is one example where creating common name redirects to a single Latin name article makes a lot of sense. Cheers, Neale Neale Monks 10:04, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Dave, I have not kept non-Australian fish for about 15 years, but when I did, I always knew this species as "three spot gourami" and I have only ever been involved in the aquarium game in Australia. Maybe that was just the group of enthusiasts and aquarium shops I used to deal with in Melbourne. BTW, the Latin name is highly suggestive of the three spot common name, my school boy Latin has long since evaporated but trichopterus would seem to mean something like "three eyed". However this does seem to be one of those cases where there is not a universally recognised common name so it seems to me appropriate for the article to be renamed using the Latin name and for redirects or disambig pages as necessary for the common names. Nick Thorne ^talk 01:01, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Nick - Thanks, must be a Sydney thing then. MidgleyDJ 01:10, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Hi Neale, Melanochromis - I'll leave an invite message to this discussion at Project Fishes & Project Aquarium fishes so we can get some views of others. MidgleyDJ 21:19, 19 April 2007 (UTC)