Talk:Three-finger salute (Serbian)

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The croats did not use the v sign the used the hitler salute because they were with hitler during WW2. The bosnians used the v sign

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[edit] Three-finger originally

There are indications and evidence that the three finger salute was used among Ustascha and Nazi soldiers. Please see the following links. [1] [forum.burek.co.yu/index.php/topic,201714.0.html ]

Yes. However, those three fingers don't have much to do with Serbian nationalist 3 fingers. It's a coincidence — they look alike, but are not the same. --★čabrilo★ 06:55, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Opening paragraph

Well, the three-finger salute is not apriori nationalist. It's certainly had a nationalist conotation on many occasions but that still doesn't make it inherently nationalist. If you're labeling the three-finger salute nationalist in the opening paragraph (meaning that you're inherently defining it as such) you're pushing your own narrow POV or one part of the definition onto an entire broad(er) concept. Such blanket labeling requires explanation, referencing and support and it is more appropriate within the body of the article along with other views on the subject.Zvonko 05:46, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hmm.. Are you labeling my edits as POV or as factually incorrect? People don't exactly greet each other with it, it's more of a political rally or football match kind of a thing. Anyway, let me put the burden of reasoning on you: can you source that all or most ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use this salute regardless of their political affiliation and national feeling? I can easily source that many anti-nationalists and anti-chauvinists resent the salute. It is also verifiable that the salute is contraversial and may lead to incidents on ethnic bases. --dcabrilo 07:28, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
P.S. It's a bad form to revert after everybody else (in this case me) demonstrated good faith and willingness to discuss the issue. --dcabrilo 07:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't know how much you edited but the specific edit in the opening paragraph in which you solely define the salute as nationalistic is your POV. That is what I was referring to.
As for Anyway, let me put the burden of reasoning on you: can you source that all or most ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use this salute regardless of their political affiliation and national feeling?
The fact that obviously not all ethnic Serbs and/or citizens of Serbia use the salute doesn't in any way immediately make it nationalistic. How exactly did you make a connection between those two things?!
You're the one who made a bold claim that narrowly defines this article (three-finger salute) in certain way (as nationalistic). The burden is entirely on you to substantiate that claim. It is one thing when POV is included as a generally present viewpoint within the body of the article and quite another when such a definitive claim is made as the very definition - which is what you've done.
I didn't make any claims, you, on the other hand, did.Zvonko 09:41, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Ok, lemme try. There is no academic sources on this, at least that I could find, but I will dig out the second best thing:
  1. Three fingers in music:
    1. Atheist Rap: Umesto stisnute pesnice sada dižu tri prsta / U odbranu nacije i časnoga krsta [2] (Instead of a fist, they are raising three fingers, to defend the nation and honorable (or something) cross)
    2. Luna: Zemlja krsta sa tri prsta, malo posta malo mrsa, ispracaja u vojnike, zemlja raj za neradnike [3] (Country with three fingers, some fat some fast, sending soldiers to the army, country is a heaven for those who do not work)
    3. Demonio: Pravoslavna vera, tri prsta, k'o Srbin da piše posred čela. [4] (Orthodox faith, three fingers, like Serb written on the forehead)
  2. Three fingers from Nikolaj Velimirović: Rise three fingers Orthodox Serbs! Down with all antinational elements: parasites and bloodsuckers, capitalists, godless and communists! ... Serbian national consciousness is awakened ...
  3. In news:
    1. Čulić: ... promiloševićevski unionisti u Crnoj Gori promijenili su se ... njih definitivno više ne oličavaju one spodobe s tri prsta u ruci i tri zuba u glavi. [5] (saying how pro-Milošević unionists in Montenegro become more normal and don't raise three fingers any more)
    2. Danas/Slobodna Dalmacija: Provokator s tri prsta pokrenuo bujicu udaraca [6] (some sports match, "Provocatour with three fingers started a fight"
    3. Dereta (Danas): Potom su devojke uz veseli smeh krenule sa trga. Za njima je pošla i grupa dečaka. Jedan od njih je prema Ženama u crnom mahao uzdignutom šakom pokazujući tri prsta i glasno uzviknuo: "Srbija! Srbija! Srbija!" (Some boys were protesting against Women in Black, waved their three fingers and yelled "Serbia!")
Now, go and read Nationalism. It says: Nationalism sees most human activity as national in character. Nations have national symbols, a national culture, a national music and national literature; national folklore, a national mythology and - in some cases - even a national religion. Individuals share national values and a national identity, admire the national hero, eat the national dish and play the national sport.
Your turn! (P.S. you still own me an explanation of how this is a POV and not accuracy dispute, just saying it is so doesn't explain it) --dcabrilo 17:06, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
Just checking up on you. Do you intend to provide some references or can I edit the article? --dcabrilo 20:39, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

As stated above, there is no need to label the salute as "nationalist" one as there is clearly usage of the 3 fingers (most notability by professional athletes) that is not in a nationalist connotation. The nationalist connotation as perceived from usage during the Yugoslav wars is clearly stated in the article, but your giving it undue weight and pushing a POV by simply stating the salute is 'nationalist' in the opening sentence of the article. Please leave the top as a generic description, and present your sources and writeup of the nationalist connotation within the article. // laughing man 16:17, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Hold on, how is it Serb salute? Am I forced to use it because I'm from Serbia? Am I expected to? Is rising straight right arm up a German salute or a Nazi salute? Can you source that it is not nationalist? Athletes who do use it may or may not be nationalist - I took part in international athletic events, and I never, like most of my teammates, celebrated victory in such a way. There is a plenty of source to show that it is nationalist. --★čabrilo★ 19:58, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
No, I am saying that the salute should not labeled as "nationalist" salute in the opening, nor should it be labeled as "patriotic" to not push a POV. It should simply be described. I do feel the origins/usage/connotations sections should be expanded and cleaned up using reliable sources, unfortunately I'm having difficulty locating English language sources, but there have been reliable sources (Reuters) that have referred to the salute as a "traditional three-finger Serbian salute", with no mentions of any nationalistic connotations, but instead a patriotic connotation. [7] // laughing man 21:11, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
Regarding "traditional" - I'm not sure that anything that is 15 years old can be considered traditional (the salute was simply not used before per se). Yes, many people think it is, but many people also think that four B's on the Serbian coat of arms are in fact cyrillic S's and other non-sense. There are MANY sources to say that this is considered a nationalist salute, and even if we want to stay clear of such labeling, we still need to make sure to put the right weight to the connotations. E.g. no leftist/pacifist/anti-nationalist/anarchist/communist would ever use that salute (e.g. see how it's mentioned here: [8] - a somewhat anarchist bunch talks about a Serbian politician who is running away from them shouting: "you communist criminals!" and showing three fingers. --★čabrilo★ 12:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup of article

  • "Nationalist" was mentioned 4 times in article, I believe that "Nationalist" standpoint is expressed clearly in current version.
  • Removed the "4 Four S's" statement, what does it have to do with 3 fingers? How is this disputed?
  • Also not sure why the Ustaše statement (unsourced) belongs in the "Three-finger salute (Serbian)" article. --Lowg 23:16, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Chauvinism

Please take a look at discussion above. I provided several examples of what people think of what people think of 3 fingers. Also, many people, not Bosniak or Croatian, find three fingers rather provocative and chauvinist. So please, review my arguments above, and come up with sources that state that three fingers are anything but nationalist. --dcabrilo 16:09, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed pending citation

The salute is a relatively recent invention [citation needed], based on Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers instead of entire hand [citation needed]. (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit) [citation needed].

You are requesting citation for this? Is it not common knowledge? Adding:
"The salute is based on the Orthodox way of crossing, with the three fingers ::: instead of entire hand (which is associated with the Christian Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit)." source: Hajdinjak, Marko. (2000) Yugoslavia - Dismantled and Plundered http://www.ceu.hu/nation/theses/hajdinjak0001.pdf --Lowg 20:25, July 9, 2006 (EST)
Great, so add it back in. - FrancisTyers · 07:25, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
I beg to differ. Wasn't this first used/popularized in post March 9th demonstrations, when Vuk Drašković requested some three things be done by the government? Orthodox Christianity and three fingers seem like folk explanation to me, so I'd like some more sources, please, especially since this guy doesn't source the claim in his masters thesis. --dcabrilo 07:43, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
You're welcome to present better sources. - FrancisTyers · 08:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
It might be as well, but the "holy Trinity" is a folk interpretation no matter what the real origin or intention was. The statement that the salute is relatively recent invention was removed as collateral damage, but it certainly is; it has never been used before 1990s TTBOMK. Your reference to March 9th looks plausible, but if you find a source, I'd be pleased. Duja 12:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Within Serbia itself, it is mostly used by younger people [citation needed]; it can be most often seen by fans and even players themselves when celebrating sport victories [citation needed]. It is considered nationalistic, and not always appropriate for public display [citation needed]. Members of other ethnic groups, especially Bosniaks and Croats, will often find it provocative [citation needed].

I've removed these passages pending citation per WP:CITE and WP:VERIFY. Please don't insert unsourced statements into the article. - FrancisTyers · 17:00, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I also fail to see why is citation needed. As Lowg pointed out, it is common knowledge. What kind of citation would you like? For example, on a recent Gay parade in Zagreb, a participant from Serbia was arrested by Croatian police for showing the salute, for the "provocation and disturbance of public order". Francis, I think you suffer from WP:POINTitis too much. Duja 07:38, 10 July 2006 (UTC)
If its common knowledge there should be plenty of sources, some quotes: "If an article topic has no reputable, reliable, third-party sources, Wikipedia should not have an article on that topic." (WP:VERIFY), "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts;" (WP:NPOV). - FrancisTyers · 07:53, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

The question is, if there are no reliable sources, should we have an article on this? Note: Analogies of but this other article exists and it sucks are not arguments for. - FrancisTyers · 07:59, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

10 Q. What is the three finger display, what does that signify? 11 A. The three fingers is a traditional Serb greeting and in the Serb 12 orthodox church epitomizes the holy trinity, father, son and the holy 13 spirit. Only Serbs use such three fingers in a greeting, nobody else 14 but the Serbs. So it is distinguished from anything else. When such 15 three fingers are shown, it means that they mean only Serbs.

From [9]

- FrancisTyers · 08:28, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

This Vuk Drašković chap is interesting, seems that people use the three fingers to support what he says: [10] - FrancisTyers · 08:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] sources for this Connotations section

"The salute is often perceived as a sign of Serbian chauvinism. "

Since they are not english language, can you please give me where the links you gave make this statement, I would like to tranlsate appropriate sections to verify this, and clarify the source. --Lowg 16:32, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

As they appear in the article:

"Nekoliko kilometara kasnije prvi incident. Iz jednog auta šibenske registracije pojavljuje se ruka sa tri prsta. Klimamo glavom dostojanstveno, znamo da ekstremisti vole da se šale na tuđ račun, ne znamo hoće li nas ako podignemo tri prsta, gađati kamenom."
"Usporedo s tim, i promiloševićevski unionisti u Crnoj Gori promijenili su se i postali relativno uljuđena proevropska stranka, što je sigurno i dio kurentne poze, ali ipak njih definitivno više ne oličavaju one spodobe s tri prsta u ruci i tri zuba u glavi. "
"Međutim, sve bi prošlo bez većeg incidenta, da se jedan iz te skupine gostiju nije podigao na stolicu i gledateljima pokazao tri prsta. Odjednom je sve uskuhalo na tribini, odmah nama za leđima. "
" The Serbian female, whose name was not released by Zagreb police, was arrested for showing the Serbian hand signal of three raised fingers. She was conditionally convicted and released."

I can't open the last link. --dcabrilo 18:04, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bit more on this

There is still the line about Christianity (holy trinity) being what this is about. However, a common sense question: if this is an older or so (pre-1990) salute, how come it does not appear in photographs or paintings, nor is there a written record of it in literature prior to 1990? Also, one of the links is dead, and the other is still a masters thesis without a source. Can we get a good source on this, or I will reword it as to show that this is debatable. --dcabrilo 21:26, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Here are some older photographs. [11] Laughing Man 21:34, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Did some more research and It does seem the UN ICTY document is temporarily unavailable, but here it is on google cache [12]. (refer to page 1669). Also the thesis paper does have sources, see page 103+. Laughing Man 21:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, your [8] link shows people who are not Serbs using it, and the page actually argues that three finger salute is not Serbin. Look at the illustration on the top, it has the salute crossed-out on top-right. The three finger salute here is spread out, not fingers together (which is how one crosses herself). Also, the ICTY document is handfull, so can somebody help me out and say who the witness is? Finally, also the master thesis does have sources, the actual statement that three fingers have anything to do with trinity is not sourced. --dcabrilo 10:31, 10 September 2006 (UTC
Can you please try to find a source that says otherwise? You have issues with 3 sources provided, so perhaps you can find some that supports your theory? Laughing Man 17:03, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I added the ICTY link, I think, just to illustrate that it's perceived as offensive by Bosniaks, Croats and Albanians. You won't find the origin there. Duja 19:02, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
No, it was added by Francis later, but I'm not sure if it was misplaced or it does contain something about it... Duja 19:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, one of those three sources in fact "supports my theory" ([13]). I mean, if your goal is to prove that the folk theory is that it has something to do with Christianity, good, but we are yet to find any reliable and authorative sources on the matter. I only found "my theory" mentioned on Internet forums, so nothing of substance. And we still have an issue with the salute never appearing before 1990s. But, to summarize, the problems with the sources are: 1) CZIPM source argues that it was NOT used before 1990s, 2) Master thesis does not source its claim, 3) ICTY document is a statement by an anonymous witness. So, unless anybody objects, I will reword the article to say that we aren't sure what the salute means, but that there is a common folk explanation (trinity thing). --dcabrilo 22:06, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Dujo, the ICTY document has a witness saying that it has something to do with the theory. But I personally have no idea who the witness was. Somebody help if you will. --dcabrilo 22:07, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
I object with changing to "we aren't sure", it seems you are not sure, and you can not find a source to support this. I feel that it would be more helpful to this article if you spent your energy on finding better sources, instead of trying to find problems with the current ones. Please try to remember NOR and find some sources. Thanks // Laughing Man 22:16, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Ok, my source: CZIPM. The problem is that there are no sources to prove that the trinity explanation is not folk explanation. If you have one, please provide us with that. --dcabrilo 22:57, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Guess what? Another source :) "Naša borba", 1997, interview with Drašković who says that three fingers are a symbol of SPO, right here: [14]. Your turn :) --dcabrilo 23:05, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
Laughing Man, another thing: I have _every right_ to question the sources. Nothing stops me from putting up a page on the Internet saying whatever I want to. Instead of just saying that they are there, help me out and show me how any one of the two is reliable. --dcabrilo 23:17, 10 September 2006 (UTC)
No one said you didn't, but a master thesis and an ICTY hearing is not just "a page on the Internet". I don't know what else you are expecting. // Laughing Man 03:27, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
The ICTY link is dead at the moment, and it wasn't established yet what it actually contained. I think I read it at a time, and, while my memory is failing, it contained a witnessing about Serb soldiers' provocative use of the salute towards Muslims. OTOH, while ICTY judgement could be authoritative whether a war crime was committed, I fail to see how it could be relevant in establishing the origin of the salute. As far as I skimmed over the ICTY document, it is the witnessing of (protected?) witness P which explained the supposed origin of the salute as: The three fingers is a traditional Serb greeting and in the Serb orthodox church epitomizes the holy trinity.... I don't see where is established that the witness is an expert on the subject. I agree with dcabrilo that the Holy Trinity is a back-formation and a folk etymology rather than the meaning that was initially intended, and all evidence I've seen supports the theory that it originates from March 9 demonstrations led by SPO. I don't recall ever seeing it before that. Duja 08:37, 11 September 2006 (UTC)
Duja is right, the witness in the ICTY does not have the authority of the ICTY, only of himself. I also agree that the "Holy Trinity" explanation does have the ear of being a "folk" explanation, if a widely repeated one. - FrancisTyers · 10:10, 11 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] new references

Alright - I now sourced that it was in fact popularized and invented as such by Vuk Drašković. You can Google for combination of "tri prsta" and "Vuk Drašković" to get many more sources claiming the same, although unreliable. I only included journalist sources in it. --★čabrilo★ 06:35, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

Can you please list what section of the references you are using, as it will help non-native speakers verify the source, thank you. // laughing man 18:31, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
From [15]: Otkako je nekadašnji vođa srpske opozicije Vuk Drašković, pre desetak godina, iz samo njemu znanih razloga lansirao pozdrav sa "tri prsta" kao osnovni srpski simbol, nije se desilo da se lokalno izborno telo striktno i prepoznatljivo podeli na bilo kakva tri dela, niti da broj tri igra bilo kakvu značajnu ulogu u ovdašnjem političkom životu ("treći put" ili nešto slično, nepoznanica su u ovdašnjim prilikama).], first paragraph: Ever since the then-leader of the Serbian opposition, Vuk Drašković, 10 years ago, for reasons known only to himself, launched the "three finger" salute as the primary Serbian symbol, it did not happen that the local electoral body divides itself into three parts...
From [16], 7th paragraph: "Three finders are a symbol that was introduced by Vuk Drašković during demonstrations in Belgrade on 13 March 1991. Serbian Renewal Movement had three demands, and one of them was to release all people arrested for 9th March. That was our symbol of fight for change, although it took a lot of time for that symbol to be adopted it is clearly now adopted. I don't mind Serbian Radicals using it today" - says Srećković. (Srećković is a vice president of the Serbian Renewal Movement). This source also mentions that three fingers (albeit in a different form and shape) were used by Ustashe, which is mentioned in one other source here - but really has nothing to do with three fingers we are talking about here. --★čabrilo★ 19:34, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
Looking at this further, this seems to be from Kurir, which seems to be a tabloid akin to the National Enquirer here in the United States. I don't think we should be using this a reliable source. Can you please provide the us what you are using from the B92 source? // laughing man 20:08, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
While Kurir is not the pinnacle of journalism of sure, it is from a interview in it. If you can find a law suit to discredit the interview, then use it. Feel free to search B92 if you'd like though. --★čabrilo★ 13:12, 29 July 2007 (UTC)
And another thing. I did translate you the B92 source, but screwed up the formating. Fixed now. Finally, I provided two good sources that it was invented by Vuk Drašković, while there are no good sources to show that it has a religious meaning. --★čabrilo★ 13:18, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Recent "edit war"

As I engaged in a sort of an edit war, I would like to try to pose some questions regarding this article and get community's input before I proceed.

  • Introduction: We are currently "warring" between "Three fingers" being a "Serb" and a "Serb nationalist" salute. This salute is certainly not universally Serbian as it is used only by people of certain beliefs/ideology, as can be seen in sources that state what sort of incidents and reactions this salute uses. I don't think it is fair to say that it is a "Serb(ian) salute" - it can not be generalized in that way. In fact, I attended many meeting and street gatherings in Belgrade where opponents of the meeting raised three fingers in provocation and protest against it. So, not EVERYBODY uses it and not everybody finds it appropriate that it is ever used.
  • Sources for origin section: We have four sources for this: 1) A B92 column. 2) An interview in Kurir. 3) A master thesis. 4) An ICTY anonymous witness. The 4) one is just a statement by an anonymous person, and we can't verify it. I wouldn't call it a source at all. The master thesis only mentions the salute, but proves in no way the origin or meaning of it. B92 column also only mentions it, but the author relies on memory of the event. Finally, the Kurir interview has insider information. While Kurir is not a reputable source, there are no claims that the interview is fake (and I checked if there were any).
  • So, my questions are: how do we phrase the introductory sentence and which sources do we accept? --★čabrilo★ 14:08, 1 August 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Milan Nedic and Three finger salute

As far as I know Milan Nedic,serbian fascist from ww2 developed that salute.--(GriffinSB) (talk) 17:54, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

This is a blind guess and you are completely incorrect. The three finger salute, however long it's been in use, draws its roots from the Serbian Orthodox Christian Church and is nothing more than a visual representation of the Holy Trinity (Father, Son, Holy Spirit) held in high esteem by Orthodox Christian Serbs ( see here, here and here). Three fingers are displayed by most Serbs for the same reason that Orthodox Serbs cross themselves with three fingers and for the same exact reason that Serbs greet their familiy members by kissing them on the cheek three times - to honour their religious belief of God as he appears in all three forms. It's a religious gesture that is used in good faith by most Serbs but has taken a different connotation during ethnic hostilities in WWII and the Yugoslav wars which still changes nothing about it's origins.
As far as Nedic is concerned, not only does the salute predate Nedic, one would have to completely ignore the fact that Serbian people starting back in WWII (including both royalists and communists) uniformily see Nedic as a traitor and, thus, would never have accepted this salute as their own display of pride and patriotism if it was developed by a person that is seen as a traitor by everyone using that same salute. Please research your facts before you enter a discussion midway through.
Thanks.
SWik78 (talk) 16:19, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
Swik, could you provide us with a photo of Serbs using this salute prior to 1990? Also, could you provide us with a source confirming your theory from a theologian or, better yet, a historian? You provided folk theories there. --★čabrilo★ 15:44, 17 April 2008 (UTC)