Talk:Thraco-Roman

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[edit] "favored linguistically and religiously"

"Clearly, Dacians must have been favored linguistically and religiously, by some unique ethnological features…": offhand, this strikes me as unencyclopedic, nationalistic, and imprecise. I'd say that as an opinion, it needs citation, but more than that it needs clarification: what on earth does it mean (for example) to be "religiously favored"? Does this presume that it is good fortune to be a Christian (certainly not an NPOV statement)? Etc. - Jmabel | Talk 23:50, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, you`re right, the paragraph must be rewritten. greier 09:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
The article certanly seems very POV. Unfortunately, I don't know enough about the subject to contribute directly, but see Protochronism, which seems highly relevant for this. AdamSmithee 07:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Biserica

"'Church' - Biserica… unique to Romanian Orthodoxy." I've heard this claim before, but I'm not at all sure it is correct. With a more precise meaning, basilica—the precise Latin word, rather than an evolute—exists in quite a few Western Romance languages and even in English: see Basilica. I suspect that in English it is a relatively modern borrowing (circa 15th century), but I imagine that it has persisted continuously in some of the others. - Jmabel | Talk 23:58, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I think this claim is true. Basilica means something different that Biserica. A Basilica is a Basilica, and a Biserica is a Church. That`s where the "uniqueness" comes from. It`s (probably?) the only language which still uses the word "basilica" to designate not what in modern times a basilica means. Other languages use either the Greek kuriakon based "church", "crkva", "kirken", or the latin based ecclesia (ultimatelly aslo from Greek) "iglesia", "ekklesia", etc. greier 09:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Character"

"…switched from the Latin character to a neolatine idiom…": I can sort of guess at what this means, but it isn't very clear. - Jmabel | Talk 00:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

yes, it needs clarification greier 09:22, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Question on sources

On the whole, this is great stuff. I do have one question about sources: when I see something like the note at Thraco-Roman#_note-13, I tend to guess that there was some "intermediate" source. I'm guessing that it is more likely that this list comes by way of someone else's published work, which should be acknowledged (e.g. the note should probably begin "As cited in <source>…" (If someone working on this article actually had their hands on this voluminous array of sources, many dating back to the 19th century, all I can say is "wow".) - Jmabel | Talk 00:18, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

That`s why I try to categories the sources into two "types": inline and general
By the way, there was an initiative to make a category Footnotes separate from the References. That is to use <footnotes/> separate from <references/> . Anybody knows what happened to that initiative? greier 09:28, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "a running recoil"

"…causing a running recoil, as the shouting were known to the crowd…": odd English, to the point where I'm not sure what it means. Could someone provide the Latin (or, given that this is cited as published at Leipzig, possibly the German) from which this was translated, so someone can work out how to say this in clear English? Thanks.

Even more oddly "…when the enemies had poped near them faster than any imagination". "Poped" exists only as a very obscure word meaning to make someone a pope. I'm guessing someone meant "popped", which isn't quite right, either; maybe "popped up"? But unless the original Latin contains a word really analogous to "popped", "appeared" would be better. "…[F]aster than any imagination" isn't common English either: maybe "faster than anyone could imagine", making this "when the enemies had popped up near them faster than anyone could imagine"? - Jmabel | Talk 05:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for my rugged english... Here`s the Greek and the Romanian text... Use it to polish up my clumsy translation:
The text in Greek by Simocata
The text in Greek by Simocata
The text in Greek by Theophanes Confessor
The text in Greek by Theophanes Confessor

Theophylactus:"unul din animalele de povara si-a scuturat sarcina de pe el. Se întâmplase însa ca stapânul lui sa mearga înainte. Dar cei care veneau în urma si vedeau animalul de povara târând în dezordine sarcina dupa el, îi strigara stapânului sa se întoarca si sa îndrepte povara de pe animal. Ei bine, acest lucru a fost pricina tulburarii ordinii în ostire si a facut sa înceapa fuga înapoi, caci strigatul suna cunoscut multimii: cele spuse erau si un semnal si pareau sa însemne fuga, ca si cum dusmanii s-ar fi ivit în apropiere de ei mai repede decât orice închipuire. S-a produs o foarte mare învalmaseala în ostire si mult zgomot; toti tipau tare si se îndemnau unul pe altul sa se întoarca strigând cu mare tulburare în limba tarii torna, torna, ca si cum li s-ar fi ivit pe neasteptate o lupta în timpul noptii."

Theophanes:"Un animal de povara aruncase sarcina de pe el si cineva i-a strigat stapânului animalului sa îndrepte sarcina, zicându-i în limba parinteasca: torna, torna, fratre. Stapânul catârului nu a auzit strigatul, dar oamenii l-au auzit si, crezând ca sunt înfrânti de dusmani, o luara la fuga, strigând în gura mare: torna, torna"

"…si a facut sa înceapa fuga înapoi, caci strigatul suna cunoscut multimii…" ==> "and started a flight to the rear, because the shout was known to the crowd". "ca si cum dusmanii s-ar fi ivit în apropiere de ei mai repede decât orice închipuire" ==> "and as if the enemies had appeared nearby more rapidly than could be imagined." Also, "oştire" in this context is probably (at least in the first instance) better rendered as "army" than "host". I'll edit accordingly. Thanks for the Romanian (which is what I worked from, my Greek is minimal). - Jmabel | Talk 05:17, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Translation help needed

I'm having trouble with "…unul dintre soldaţii retraşi din cel mai apropiat ţinut primejduit strigă «în limba locului»…" I get most of it, I think the sense of retraşi here is what is throwing me. I'm pretty sure of "…one of the soldiers…shouted in the local language…" and I understand "cel mai apropiat ţinut primejduit" as something like "the nearest linked danger", but don't understand whether it is "the most closely linked danger" or "the danger closest at hand". Can someone with better Romanian help me out here? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 05:58, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

It means "...one of the soldiers retreated form the nearest endangered land shouts in «the local language»…". AdamSmithee 07:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
"form" ==> "from", I presume. ţinut ==> "region", oops, certainly, I missed that, thanks. Yes, I know that retraşi can mean "retreated", that was my first thought on that, but, still, "retreated from the nearest endangered land" makes no sense here. I'll put that in there, because it seems the best translation we've got, but can someone see if there is a more meaningful way to construe this? Thanks. - Jmabel | Talk 00:35, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] românilor / româniei

Clearly "Istoria românilor" should translate as "History of the Romanians". Should "Istoria româniei" translated differently? Perhaps "Romanian History"? - Jmabel | Talk 06:09, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

I guess "History of Romania". - Jmabel | Talk 05:18, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Status (sort of)

I've done what I can with this; I've translated pretty much everything that needed to be translated, except one thing in transliterated Russian that I couldn't make out; someone might want to check my translations: my reading skills in the various languages I translated from are decent, but I'm not truly fluent in any of them, so I could have made mistakes.

The main thing I think would improve this right now is more clarity about the "intermediate" sources in the various footnotes: that is, if (as I gather is the case) most of this comes from the "general" references, it would be useful to scholars to say what came from which.

Anyway, thanks to Greier for a very good article, and I hope that what I've done has also helped significantly. - Jmabel | Talk 05:48, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

It was mostly a translation + copy-paste from other articles + copy edits... Anyway, thanks for all the help given greier 08:27, 29 June 2006 (UTC)