Talk:Thomas Mann

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[edit] Ironic

There is any Thomas Mann's novel that is not ironic? --Vasile 22:35, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

He was a fairly ironic fellow. Although not particularly funny. I don't think Joseph and His Brothers is particularly ironic, although I'm not sure, not having read it. john k 23:23, 12 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There is quite a lot of irony in Joseph Georgius 15:30, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC) I am sure, having read it.Georgius 18:04, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Read Buddenbrooks.

"Ironic" means "to say the opposite of what you mean." How was Mann ironic? Where, in his writings, did he say the opposite of what he meant?Lestrade (talk) 12:03, 9 April 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] Sexuality in the works of Thomas Mann

I have changed "Das Ring der Nibelungen" to "Walsungenblut" as the work in which incest is the subject; the short story Walsungenblut is a minor work about incestual relationship of rich jewish bourgois sibling pair with many allusions to Wagners "Das Ring des Nibelungen" (in this work Siegmund and Sieglinde are an incestual brother-sister pair parenting the central character of Siegfried; "der Nibelungen" instead of "des Nibelungen" is a common mistake, a mistake which even a native german speaker could make)

Nevertheless, I have some doubts about the stressing of sexual themes in the article. I think it is disproportional and sensation seeking. I hope someone will react to this; I am badly equipped for editing the article myself as my English is poor and I am not a native German speaker either. Georgius 19:15, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

He was known for his humor and considered "Royal Highness" to be a comedy. There are also many comedic moments in "The Magic Mountain."

His categorization as "Gay Writer" is dubious. If you read Thomas Mann, you can edit the article.

[edit] Agreement: sexuality is a minor part of his oeuvre

I wholeheartedly agree with the comment above - evidently Mann's repressed homosexuality influenced his writing, as well as, occasionally, his choice of theme, however it is not as central an inluencer in his writing as many other more interesting points. I may spend some time thinking about how best to edit the article to de-emphasise this without eradicating what is - nonetheless - an interesting (biographical) detail. It should always be rememebered that the author is not the book.

Mann's repressed homosexuality may be a myth. What proof is there that he was a repressed homosexual? It can't be assumed in the article if there is no proof. Remember, homosexuals want to insinuate that many famous people were/are homosexual. They know that doing so will influence younger readers and make them think that homosexuality is normal and natural, when in fact it is the very opposite.Lestrade (talk) 02:04, 5 April 2008 (UTC)Lestrade

[edit] Did he ever came back to Germany,or he died in exile?

Dzoni 20:09, 6 April 2006 (UTC) "Thomas Mann returned to Europe in 1952, where he resided in Kilchberg near Zurich in Switzerland. He was never to live in Germany again, though he traveled there regularly and was widely celebrated. His most important visit to Germany was in 1949, at the occasion of the 200th birthday of Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, where he attended celebrations in both Frankfurt am Main and Weimar, making a clear statement that German culture extends beyond the new political borders.

In 1955, he died of Atherosclerosis in a hospital in Zurich." ^^^^^ Thank you on that information,thats been very helpfulDzoni 22:33, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] "Nihilist"

To say that Mann ultimately became a left-wing "nihilist" is not only patently false (see later in the article where his humanism is discussed) but also POV, considering the negative connotation usually attached to the word nihilism (and if that connotation is not intended then some explanation is needed). Nihilism is, moreover, an ambiguous term that may or may not refer to a political philosophy, whereas here a word with strictly political meaning is called for.--Demflan 03:18, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Peculiar edit

Is this edit acceptable to other users here? If so I will not oppose it. Otherwise, it seems to me disingenuous, to say the least. Haiduc 14:23, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

acceptable to me, and i study these issues in thomas mann and others Leskey 15:12, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
Let me understand this clearly. You are saying that the article on Thomas Mann is of no interest to someone studying any of the aspects of pederasty, whether in history, literature or psychology? Haiduc 15:21, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
please do not put words in my mouth. i said what i said, not what you asked me if i said. thomas mann is not a member of the category "pederasty" or the category "middle-class" or the category "germany". he is a member of the categories "writers who wrote about middle-class families" and "writers wrote about lubeck" and "writers who wrote about venice" and "writers who wrote long books," but he is not a member of the category "pederasty." i have now said everything i want to say about this. so if you reply, please do not ask me again if i said something that i did not say. because i said what i said. thank you. Leskey 17:02, 26 January 2007 (UTC)
I would be willing to have him indexed under "Pederastic literature" though from the little I know about his diaries, his own pederastic desires expand the field of interest beyond mere literature, which is whay I had classed him under Pederasty. But no matter. Can we agree to use "Pederastic literature" as the category? Haiduc 03:41, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

i won't put words in your mouth. you wrote: "the little I know about his diaries." i think knowing more about his diaries and his other writings would be useful. that's a general principle, not just about thomas mann. Leskey 17:51, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

It is good to chortle, but I will let you make that suggestion to the various scholars who have seen a pederastic theme in "Death in Venice". They will certainly find your suggestion edifying. Haiduc 18:33, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
once again you have put words in other people's mouths and assumed that they said things they didn't say. and assumed that they "suggested" things they didn't suggest. it's a powerful debating trick. but that's all it is, a trick. remind me not to get into discussions where every answer is a distortion. Leskey 19:30, 27 January 2007 (UTC)
I am genuinely sorry you are upset, but if you had not seen fit to lecture me on my obvious ignorance and simply stuck to the work of editing the article we might have had a more civilized exchange. Haiduc 20:03, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

right you are. i shouldn't have been snide. i know it's hard to learn about all the many themes in a great writer's work. and frustrating to see edits that present the writer as an illustration of one theme only. with apparently no interest in knowing about any other theme. but that's no excuse for snideness i agree. regrets and apologies. Leskey 23:54, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

I do not perform my gadfly role all that gladly. I would much prefer to focus my attentions on articles pertaining specifically to the history and philosophy of pederasty, or perhaps to butterfly taxonomy. But that presumes that those well versed in their particular subjects deal frankly with this difficult and sensitive topic when there is an intersection, as there is here. But there seems to be too much academic or visceral distaste still for that to take place. If I overstep the mark please let me know. Haiduc 05:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] English translation

Thomas Mann was translated into English by H.T. Lowe-Porter, whose skillful renditions helped create Mann's popularity in the English-speaking world.

I deleted skillful from the article, since it was POV, but I think more expansion on this could be useful. The article in the Oxford Book of World Literature in English Translator was much less sanguine; it complained of a number of errors made due to Lowe-Porter's poor German skills (such as words being mistranslated as their English look-alike, not the German meaning) and the publishing having pushed Lowe-Porter to translate it quickly.--Prosfilaes 13:48, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nida photo

Since the article features a photo of Mann's summer cottage in Nida (known to him by its German name, Nidden), I added a short section explaining about the cottage. (I myself have been there twice, and I think it's definitely worth visiting.) I don't think an explanation of how this part of the Curonian Spit has been alternately part of Germany and of Lithuania several times was worth going into here.

I would suggest that our Wiki authorities on Thomas Mann expand the sparse section on Mann's life before he emigrated from Germany in revulsion at the Nazi takeover. Sca 16:36, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:26, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Personal Letter October 1933

However, already in 1933, in a personal letter from Oct. 26, published only recently (see, e.g., the feuilleton of the journal FAZ from Oct. 30, 2007), Thomas Mann wrote down views on nazism, which corresponded to the much later novel Doktor Faustus.

This statement is interesting but I can find no reference in faz.net, or anywhere else. The entire sentence is in need of a rewrite. FAZ is a newspaper and not a journal, and should be written out in full and linked. "Oct. 30" does not conform to WP:MOS for date formats. "Nazism", I actually prefer "Naziism", should be capitalised. "Doktor Faustus" is "Doctor Faustus" in English.

If no reference can be found for this I suggest that it be removed. Otherwise a rewrite - and exapnsion - could be done on the basis of said reference. I'm not exactly sure what the author was trying to say. It is also to be noted that this "Denglish" sentence was added from a German (DTAG) IP address. TinyMark 12:32, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Socialism/Communism

Thomas Mann has never been close to socialistic or communistic view. It is right that he and his family have been investigated during the McCarthy Era, but this is clearly not an evidence. Most liberal thinkers have been investigated in this time. Thomas Mann has in contrary to his brother Heinrich and his childern Klaus and Erika never sympathized with communistic or socialistic views. That is for example why he and Brecht never were friendly with each other. Thomas Mann was a member of the intellectual bourgoisie of his time and very conservative. Liberal and democratic proclamation never overcame this conservative background.

I think, the sentences concerning socialism/communism should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mathilda.twist (talk • contribs) 11:11, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

My instinct is to agree with you, but there must be lots of things by Mann I never read. So I could be wrong. The answer, surely, is to invite someone to quote a source for the opinion or (better still) chapter and verse as to which of his writings characterize this alleged politically pink phase. So I entered a little flag which, let us hope, will persuade someone better read than I resolve doubts one way or the other. Regards Charles01 (talk) 11:26, 28 April 2008 (UTC)
I tried to see of the assertion had been copied from the much more comprehensive German wiki entry on TM. I couldn't find it there, but I didn't read through the entire entry, so if is is there I could still have missed it. In general the German entry has far more source notes - as you would expect - though it's still generally not too easy to work out which bits are sourced from which source: still, if anyone wants to comb through that lot more carefully....More regards Charles01 (talk) 11:33, 28 April 2008 (UTC)