Talk:Third Crusade

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 WikiProject Religion
Religion Portal
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Religion, a project to improve Wikipedia's articles on Religion-related subjects. Please participate by editing the article, and help us assess and improve articles to good and 1.0 standards, or visit the wikiproject page for more details.
??? This article has not yet received a rating on the Project's quality scale. Please rate the article and then leave a short summary here to explain the ratings and/or to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article.
This article falls within the scope of the Interfaith work group. If you are interested in Interfaith-related topics, please visit the project page to see how you can help. If you have any comments regarding the appropriateness or positioning of this template, please let us know at our talk page


This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Third Crusade article.
Article policies

Contents

[edit] Comments

In the sections Muslim Unification (In an attempt to divert Crusader attention from Egypt, Nur ad-Din...) and Fall of the Latin Kingdom, (The Crusader army, thirsty and demoralized, was destroyed...), I question the designation "Crusader". They weren't Crusaders, they were for the most part the descendents of Crusaders. They were, again for the most part, born and raised in Outremer; they were Franks or Christians, but not really Crusaders.

I've never edited a Wiki entry, and these particular phrases have been in place for a couple years. Also, I am not a scholar and not really sure which substitute would be an improvement. But in the Wikipedia entry "Kingdom of Jerusalem" the term "Franks" is used.

Anyone care to make the change to "Franks" or to suggest something else?

J Baustian 08:04, 8 November 2007 (UTC)J Baustian

Again this is full of Errors.

1. Saladin was, to begin with, an agent of the Zengid dynasty of Mosul, not the Seljuks. He himself was a Kurd.

2. more coming.

Can someone re-write or add to this article? I don't think there's enough details here to do the 3rd Crusade justice. How and when did Saladin retake Jerusalem from the Crusaders after Richard's Siege? --Phaust

I'm planning on rewriting it eventually, but it might not be for a couple of months. I'm not sure what you mean though...Richard never captured Jerusalem, so Saladin didn't take it back from him. Saladin recaptured Jerusalem in 1187. Adam Bishop 15:29, 23 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Oh you're right, I misread a line. >_< --Phaust
Sorry, I beat you to it. I couldn't let it sit in that dilapidated form. Improve mine in whatever way you see fit. Palpatine 13:36, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Cool, thanks! Adam Bishop 16:15, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Great improvement! Phaust 05:26, 14 Jun 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Phillip Augustus

The article makes nearly no mention of Phillip Augustus, who, according to my sources, actually did go to the third Crusade with Richard I, and then left because of quarreling with his brother. See Medieval Europe, a short History, to see what I mean. I will do more research on this subject and then make a formal change (hopefully).

Sorry, forgot to sign, Im new at this. (Polloc81)

He's mentioned as Philip II of France. I included what I know, which is that he did go, and then left. I can't find much of anything noteworthy that can't also be attributed to Richard, but if you do, feel free to add it. Palpatine 06:37, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


hey he is right about it nearly not mentioning phillip augustus! jane xxx

[edit] Plague

I am uncertain of my disambiguation of plague: due to the timing (1190) and location (not Europe), I didn't use Black Death - I'm sure this is a correct decision. The question is: is it believed (with some certainty) that it was Bubonic plague or shall we link it to the more generic Pestilence? Could someone more aware of such things please edit if necessary? Thx. John (Jwy) 04:59, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

It wasn't the Black Death, but there was bubonic plague around since at least the 6th century...unfortunately it seems like everytime someone dies of an unknown disease, they are said to have died of "plague." (Or, if it's the 1911 Britannica, "dropsy".) Adam Bishop 05:20, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
The word "pestis" was used for various infectious diseases. The diseases in the camp at Acre seem to have been malaria, typhoid, dysentery and scurvy. The main problem was dead bodies (human and animal) contaminating the water sources. Silverwhistle 18:38, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

Was appalled to see Reston's sensationalist Warriors of God and Williams's atrocious Complete Idiot's Guide to the Crusades referenced as sources. I have replaced them with some more useful texts, including translations of primary sources. I plan to do more on this page. Silverwhistle 10:34, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

Much appreciated, but please be aware that we are not all so fortunate as to have immediate or cheap access to primary source material. I figured that at least citing some kind of source would be better than citing none at all. --Palpatine 06:59, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Have you tried http://gallica.bnf.fr/ ? You can download the whole of the Recueil des Historiens des Croisades, and a lot of the Rolls Series for free! A brilliantly useful resource. Silverwhistle 09:58, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Except that it is all PDF, the interface is in French, and you can't search within the texts :) Adam Bishop 15:14, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Since when was an interface being in French a problem for a Crusades historian? ;-D
It's a great site, when the server isn't playing up... :-( Silverwhistle 17:00, 8 June 2006 (UTC)

Gasp! Appalled! -Augustulus

[edit] Entire Muslim World

Removed this sentence .Nur ud Din got control of entire Muslim World,fro m Syria to Egypt.Whoever wrote thatMuslim world was bigger than these two countries in first twenty years of Islam and here some one has chosen to mark only Egypt and Syria as entire Muslim World.... --61.5.136.6 06:26, 10 June 2006 (UTC)Naeem

[edit] Citation needed - Saladin's ghost

I've replaced the parenthetical comment below with a {{fact}} tag:

Richard returned to England in 1194 and died of an arrow wound in 1199 at the age of 42.
Shortly after Richard's departure, Saladin died, leaving behind only one piece of gold and forty-seven pieces of silver; he had given the rest away to his poor subjects. (saladin died in 1193, 6 years before richard so this is conflicting)

John (Jwy) 14:11, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect: 1) RIchard LEFT for England in 1193, arriving 1194. 2) Saladin died in 1193 and 3) departure is NOT intended to mean Richard's departure from this world, but from the Middle East. But I'll leave to a more informed editor to handle. John (Jwy) 14:22, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Saladin died shortly after Richard returned home, so there is no conflict there. It's true that Saladin gave away lots of money but I don't know off-hand where those specific numbers come from. Adam Bishop 16:30, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
I've removed the tag by specifying the date. If its important that it was after Richard left, we need to be a bit more crafty in how we word things. John (Jwy) 18:36, 23 June 2006 (UTC)
Its not really favorable to replace recorded historical facts with personal suspicious. The story of Saladin's give away of his money was just a tradition made by many other faithful Moslem leaders as a sign of faith and was recorded by many historians. Hawazen 08:09, Sun, Aug 6, 2006 (UTC)

[edit] comment on rule of hospitality

(Apologies for not following protocol. I'm still getting used to Wiki...) Where the heck did you get this piece of trivia --->

 --->   "Guy took a drink but was forbidden to pass the goblet to Raynald, because the Muslim rule of hospitality states that one who receives food or drink is under the protection of the host."

I've never read a "Muslim Rule of hospitality" or any other nonsense as this.

This part really needs some additional research and rewording. Woof!

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.158.84.211 (talk • contribs) 07:45, 16 November 2006(UTC)

The trivia about the muslim hospitality is correct, refusing him the goblet showed that he was not under saladins protection, and was therefore to be punished.
—Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.154.172.211 (talk • contribs) 20:27, 22 March 2007(UTC)

[edit] Joan

In the section on Richard and Philip's departure, it mentions that the ship carrying Richard's sister, Joan, was lost. However, in Regicide and Negotiations, it talks about negotiations to marry Joan to Alad-il. I myself do not know which one is correct, but I'm fairly certain Alad-il wouldn't have wanted to marry a drowned corpse at the bottom of the Mediterranean. --Ω 22:01, 11 March 2007 (UTC)

The ship was wrecked, Joanna of Sicily survived. Follow the links to her page. She died in childbirth some years later. Silverwhistle 18:35, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Assassin's Creed

The first game in the Assassin’s Creed franchise is set in 1191 AD, when the Third Crusade was tearing the Holy Land apart. Shrouded in secrecy and feared for their ruthlessness, the Assassins intend to stop the hostilities by suppressing both sides of the conflict. Players, assuming the role of the main character Altair, will have the power to throw their immediate environment into chaos and to shape events during this pivotal moment in history.

[1] [2] [3]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.68.194.241 (talk • contribs) 20:51, 4 April 2007(UTC)

Is this in any way relevant to the subject? Swanny18 (talk) 13:18, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Death of Frederick

"However, on June 10, 1190, Frederick was thrown from his horse in the crossing of the Saleph River and drowned."

Actually there is some degree of source discrepancy over this one. According to Tyerman the exact cause of his death has been blamed on many different things although that River was certainly always involved.

Minor detail I know but the event had a high impact so I reckon we should get it right! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.70.35.136 (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2007 (UTC).


[edit] 55 vs. 1000?

"In July 1192, Saladin suddenly attacked and captured Jaffa with thousands of men, but the city was re-captured by Richard and a much smaller force of 55 men on July 31." Sounds dubious. I remember hearing something about quarreling between Muslim leaders causing the defeat. Details, anyone? Citations? Top.Squark 11:16, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 4th Crusade

Was the call for the 4th Crusade 6 years later or 12 years later? The article says both... Cambion 14:20, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Innocent III called for a new one when he became pope in 1198, everyone ignored him until 1199, no one bothered to organize anything until 1200, and they didn't actually leave until 1201. Adam Bishop 18:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Infobox

I can understand the logic of having the Byzantines on the opposite side, but they definitely weren't a Muslim army! How can we represent this more accurately? Adam Bishop (talk) 04:19, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed; how's that? Swanny18 (talk) 15:56, 10 April 2008 (UTC)