Talk:Theory of everything/Archive 4

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Larson's Reciprocity must be added as a super candidate for TOE

The main reason that Reciprocity must be a candidate is that, it achieves every predictions that it makes from just "silly" and simple assumptions, and which seem so fundamental and the deepest foundation and starting point that we might get in physics. You must realize that Reciprocity gives you only assumptions and not the whole theory describing the whole universe, i.e. it will be up to you to manipulate those assumptions in whatever ways possible to arrive at a theory describing a particular phenomena in the physical universe, just as Larson did for many of his descriptions of natural phenomena. Thus, in this respect, someone will be required to work out descriptions of the strong and weak forces of nature. Has anyone tried? If not that is why Reciprocity "doesn't" describe these forces. But it has those lovely assumptions that serve you as a vehicle to drive and discover descriptions of the Universe in the world of physics. Recall that Einstein derived length and time contractions or E=mc2 from mere assumptions. If Einstein didn't work out E=mc2, would you say Special Relativity is not complete? Larson published his work near 1959 or so and he might not have been aware of these forces for that matter. I suppose the idea of these forces might not have been so popular or even known by that time to be readily available for everyone to ponder about.

Yirdaw (May 19, 2006).

What is "reciprocity"? Is this the name of a real theory in physics? What peer reviewed physics journals have articles on this subject? Or is this just an amateur's pet project? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.109.156.34 (talk • contribs) on 03:05, 21 May 2006.


I hoped to hear the comment of the author of the TOE page on why he removed Larson’s Reciprocity. It also doesn’t hurt to introduce strangers to this Theory. All I can tell you is that The Reciprocal System of Theory or Reciprocity for short was advanced by Dewey B. Larson and you can check www.rsystem.org for extensive details. Since the maintainer of the page is The International Society of Unified Science, it can give you some confidence to take it seriously. I don’t know if you can find books published by Larson on Reciprocity, the list of which you can find from the website above. You can also note from this site that one student did his PHD in Physics in Reciprocity. Why we should be fond of it is that Reciprocity achieves so many descriptions of, among other things, astronomical phenomena in quite elegant and simple manner and has other excellent features that really deserve attention. Just to stun you with some, it starts out with overwhelmingly simple postulates or the simplest of postulates that you can ever imagine and arrives at the Constancy of the Speed of Light independent of observers, which, of course is the postulate of Special Relativity (oops, we derived Relativity). To add another, one of the other things it attracts me is that (although I couldn’t find it clearly stated in Larson’s work, the best reference I could get is “space and time exist in discreet units”, at least for now) space and time are discrete, which is quite sensible to me (and I hope to some others) after I came up with this idea “myself” but later found that this concept is as old as 1930 or so (check www.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~motl/Gibbs/discrete.htm). Reciprocity, as done by Larson, I feel, is a great start towards a TOE.

Yirdaw (May 23, 2006) .

First, we're all the "authors" of the TOE page: anyone can edit any article here. As for "Reciprocity", I know nothing about this theory beyond what you've said here. That means it's pretty likely that this theory falls under Wikipedia's No Original Research policy. If it turns out to eventually become accepted in the scientific community, great. But until it becomes "notable" in the field, it's best left to scientific discussions and publications rather than a general encyclopedia. (And speaking of scientific publications, I've never heard of "The International Society of Unified Science", but even the name sounds rather questionable to me.)--Steuard 13:55, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
Compare Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Reciprocal System of Theory. --Pjacobi 11:02, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


Thanks for the info; I have read your comments. I am not saying accept the whole theory as it stands and drop String theory, GR(General Relativity) and so on. What I am saying is we might take some ideas from Reciprocity and perhaps use them in String Theory and vice-versa. With this point in mind, I think any Physicist, if he chooses so, would like to read about it. Since the sole purpose of Wiki is to present free information that is useful to the public, the above point could be a useful aspect of the theory that it may deserve a place in Wiki.

Let me list some aspects of Reciprocity that I think somehow agree with String theory and GR:

1. Energy is one dimensional in nature in Reciprocity and strings in String theory are one-dimensional vibrating energy.
2. Photon is a vibration in Reciprocity and of course in String theory. And forces like electricity arise, in Reciprocity, through some vibration patterns. In String theory, particles like, the photon and electron arise through vibration modes (patterns).
3. Reciprocity asserts space and time exist in discrete units, i.e. space and time are discrete and not continuous. String theory and GR tend to imply space and time are discrete at the Planck scales.
4. Reciprocity asserts the sole constituent of the Universe is motion, i.e. space and time only. I have read in a Relativity book talking of GR implying space, time, matter and energy are inseparable, i.e. space and time are equal to matter (mass) and energy.

Some ingredients I think Reciprocity lacks and need to include are:

1. Space is only three dimensional, where in String theory it’s more than that. But Larson chose to work in 3D because he simply couldn’t imagine the existence of extra dimensions.
2. I feel Reciprocity is flooded with logical reasoning (but can we say the “logical” reasoning is part of thought experiments which Larson must use to work with his theory?) and that it somehow needs to go fully mathematical.
3. The discrete units of space and time in Reciprocity do not correspond to the Planck scales and are much larger. I think it would be better to work out with this problem if we expect a successful Reciprocity.

Finally, here is a short list (perhaps incomplete) of ideas form Reciprocity that might be incorporated in String theory, which might save years of research before eventually String theory itself imply them:

1. That space and time are discrete (explained above).
2. That time is like space in that it is also three dimensional. According to Larson, we perceive time as one dimensional because we are living in a gravitationally bound region and that’s why time seems one dimensional and as we move away from this region time appears 3D. But then, if we accept the idea of String theory as space being multidimensional, say 11 dimensional according to M-Theory, and incorporate this extra dimensionality in Reciprocity, we see that time is of 11 dimensions like that of space.

--Edyirdaw 12:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC), formerly identified myself as "Yirdaw" but now I've become a user.

Contradiction

There was a contradiction in the paragraph on "Other Theories". The setup stated: This section includes published and tested scientific theories with quantifiable and/or falsifiable predictions. Throughout time philosophers, scientists, artists, and many others have offered conjecture, untested ideas, relating to the origins and inner workings of the universe and will not be found here.

Yet, the list begins with Time Cube .... either this setup para needs modification or TC needs to be removed. DrL 16:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the same inconsistency myself a day or two ago. My personal preference remains to move all non-mainstream theories to a separate page discussing such ideas specifically (with a link to that article from this one), but I'm not sure how popular that notion is. As it stands, the list also includes things like Heim theory whose predictions aren't just falsifiable but falsified, so I find it very unsatisfying. If the consensus does turn out to be to keep a full "Other Theories" section here, I really don't have much preference as to what sort of list it should be (except that I hope they find a way to keep it from growing to be the bulk of the article).--Steuard 18:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
IMHO, the whole section should be removed. The most relevant examples can be included in the article. Having a section like this may be an invitation to spam the article. DrL 19:09, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Effectively done. --Pjacobi 22:09, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Subject: Classification of Theories of Everything

In any information processing system an essential component is referencing to what is already known, and this is the basic function of an encyclopedia. [When I was a kid my folks bought one from a traveling salesman for far too much money, but it was crucial to my education.] The one we are now using here is awesome with information available from everyone, but the effectiveness of an encyclopedia depends partly on accurate classification of information denoted by specific terms. Those terms are the routing element. Anyone clicking on the the words they type in hopes to find a summary of available information on their specific question including references for more details.

Specialized terms present a problem for Wikipedia, because most readers are unfamiliar with the specialized definition, tend to generalize these terms or take them literally. Those editing articles go through intense debate about the content but present good information that fits their specialized definition of the terms denoting the topic, but readers may have questions far beyond the specialized discussion. They are left with no words to type in for further exploration beyond the available information.

The term "Theory of Everything" began among physicists to denote attempts to find a clear and clean mathematical model of the interrelatedness of the very small and the very large consistent with all hard data. This is now most of the information presented in the Wikipedia classification, "Theory of Everything". However, to many readers this term means literally theory of everything, and wonder about the interrelatedness of many other things such as the theory of biological evolution, documented everywhere by zillions of details, and how this may fit with current physicists' theories of everything.

Should the classification of theories of everything also include theories of the interrelatedness of mental process with everything else? Religious ideas (often narrowly defined) are usually excluded as untestable, yet all ideas from the obviously goofy to the most effective are a function of the neurochemical process of a biological brain. Is this not also an integral component of the reality of everything we seek to understand?

A comprehensive classification of theories of everything may include categories that are now relatively empty. Should these also be included in this Wikipedia reference document for anyone seeking everything currently known for purposes of further exploration?

A "true" theory of everything must account for every detail of everything and can be falsified by identifying any entity or process that does not fit. The efficiency of the search for this is contingent on optimum exchange of information. The information denoted by the term "theory of everything" is much broader than physics, and the classification should be revised to include all significant categories of relevant information on the subject. There is much work to be done. Sporacle 00:23, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

  • Hi and welcome to Wikipedia :) There is an article, Theory of everything (philosophy), that may be more in line with what you are talking about. Theory of Everything in physics is more specialized (at least the way the topic is being divided up here on Wikipedia). There was a great article on Christopher Langan's Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe, which speaks directly to the interrelatedness of mental process with everything else (so glad to see your awareness of the importance of that fundamental concept). It was deleted in spite of its obvious notability because of the potential for theological implications (it was a teleological model). So much for NPOV. You are absolutely correct that a TOE, by definition, should encompass everything. I really enjoyed your observation that a proper TOE is easily falsified by identifying any entity or process that does not fit. If nothing else, you've made my day :) DrL 04:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Time Cube

Please leave it out. It is nothing more than a joke. I'm not sure about the other efforts in that section. Citations would help for the others. DrL 12:51, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it's not a joke, and is very much worthy of inclusion. Not only the Academic mainstream qualifies for mention in this article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 136.186.1.199 (talk • contribs) .
If we are going to include other efforts, then a representative list should be compiled. Until then, it's best to leave out individual entries. Please sign your posts. --DrL 18:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes the posts need to be unsigned. We have already a representative list: namely, Time Cube, Burkhard Heim and quantised general relativity, Eino Kaila, Expansion Theory, General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics. These items have been re-included in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.76.188 (talk • contribs) .

This article about a scientific theory is demeaned by including information about illogical, fanciful notions such as the Time Cube. Time Cube is even acknowledged as "pseudoscience" within this article. User 136.186.1.199 who has insisted that it be included has made several nonsensical edits to the Time Cube article which shows that he is biased and should not be taken seriously.--141.214.17.5 00:09, 8 October 2006 (UTC)

Mentioning the existence of amateur speculations does not demean serious theories. It is helpful to emphasize the difference. The acknowledgement of the pseudoscientific theory here is exactly what is needed. How else do you think people will find out which is true? Censorship does not further the cause. --Blainster 22:02, 9 October 2006 (UTC)
This is not censorship. There are a lot of alternative and crank TOEs. This is not a list of them, although you might consider starting a page about them if you wish. Consensus for removal can be found throughout this page. --DrL 18:07, 10 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia's neutral point of view policy wisely has a clause about "undue weight". In this case, precisely one person on this Earth believes in the Time Cube. In order for it to be appropriate for inclusion, this article would have to be long and deep enough to encompass all other ToE's of equal prominence; i.e., everybody's crackpot view. It's not, and it's a practical impossiblity for it ever to be so. siafu 18:58, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

It might be a good idea to ask for a third opinion on the inclusion of Time Cube. --DrL 16:01, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I only noticed this discussion now. I removed Time Cube a short time ago. It's not even a theory. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 03:39, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Let me elaborate. Firstly, Time Cube is, as far as I can see, only a loose collection of statements. It's not a single, interconnected explanation of reality, so it is not a theory. Secondly, it does not make predictions and it is not discussed in scientific journals, so it's not science, and definitely not a physical theory. Thirdly, it's a viewpoint held only by one guy. Any of these reasons would be sufficient not to mention it in the article. -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 07:03, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
Jitse Niesen, I shall refute your points. Time Cube is very coherent: and if reading the high-level discourse on the Time Cube dot com website was too arduous a task for you, then the CubicAO site should provide an easier explanation of the strong, flawless links that exist between all aspects of the Time Cube principle.

Secondly, yes, it makes the prediction that everything will behave by Cubic principles—as it already does. It makes the prediction that Time will always be Cubic, not linear. It predicts the fact that life on Earth is demonstrably Cubic. I feel that the Time Cube website explains many of these predictions in sufficient depth.

Finally, for example of persons other than Gene Ray who adhere to Time Cube, see again the Cubic Awareness Online website, a site independent of Gene Ray, containing text articles, videos and forum activity for which numerous Time Cube adherents are collectively responsible.

Indeed, Time Cube merits mention in this Theory-of-Everything article—for as a final statement, I will observe that Time Cube has received such great quantities of publicity as to render it highly notable, and worthy of inclusion in this T-O-E article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Time Cube Guy (talk • contribs)
Ad 1) You think it's coherent, I think it's not. I guess we have to disagree here.
Ad 2) I don't see any falsifiable predictions, nor are there reliable sources evaluating Time Cube as a scientific theory.
Ad 3) Compare the notability of Time Cube (three talks, for student societies, one publication in a humanities journal) with the notability of string theory (more than fifty talks in one conference alone, eighty papers in a single journal issue). -- Jitse Niesen (talk) 05:04, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I find that Time Cube makes very clear claims. For instance, that Time is Cubic. If that hypothetically happens to be false (which it's not, it's true) then all you have to do is observe or prove that Time is something other than Cubic, and it is falsified. Also, if Earth and all other planets/stars/galaxies didn't have a full 360 degrees, but rather, 90 degrees only, with the remaining 270 degrees being an illusory hologram created by Allah (clearly a false fictitious proposition), then that would falsify Time Cube. Yes, these may be obvious predictions that Time Cube makes, but then again Time Cube is the theory of everything and it is the basis for all the empirical phenomena that we take for granted. Falsifiability is present.

Research groups should research Time Cube. As it is, we only need reliable sources for the statements about Time Cube that are made in the article. We do have reliable sources for those clear, undeniable, simple explanations of the nature of Time Cube and the publicity it's received.

Time Cube has also been covered on numerous radio interviews, on the Internet and on the analogue airwaves, and furthermore it has received television coverage on TechTV and been discussed extensively on probably hundreds of thousands of websites. No it wasn't just "student societies", rather it was attendance of several hundred students from university-wide at both Gene's MIT lecture and Georgia Tech lecture. In short, gargantuan quantities of publicity have been devoted to the theory.

I think the idea of the "other efforts" section is to include theories that aren't quite as centred in the mainstream as the "string theory" you cite. Thus, Time Cube certainly merits inclusion.
The fact that it's "notable" means that it deserves its own article, which it has, not that it deserves to be placed among other actual scientific theories. siafu 15:01, 28 October 2006 (UTC)
I differ; as an actual scientific theory, and a notable one at that, Time Cube definitely deserves to be explained and mentioned within this Theory of Everything article.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.25.141 (talk • contribs) .

In everything of the nature's plan is the imagination

Following below the spiritual information, possibility swiftly finds out most important answers to help people find a place and their role of the Universe:

Everything of the world of matter including the present visible unit is the result of evolution. According to this theory; there was a past of the world of matter. Without the imagination power, there is no way to find out the first or last situation of the universe that means in naked eyes through telescope is the evolution of our angle of vision, the material picture of the present time shall not be detected. The only element and eligible of applying imagination power is inside our brain and without the presence of single dimension at the first and last situation of which there remains no balance. At this events or moment, our home planet is our time and out of the home planet there is no value i.e. we are looking everything has creation in the Universe. Again, the same event or very moment, borders on the spiritual there is no event space-time and physics i.e. nothing creation in the universe and this realism is the nothing everything at all. Again, the result of evolution and motion of the spread energetic is the visible scenery of the present Universe. The past of all thing of the cosmic world of the universe is high power and everything of the present world is the result of rolling and moving of the single dimension of the past. Hence, in the universe there shall be no incidence of reality of the creation world of anything at all. That means at this event whatever shall be received through imagination for any borders on the spiritual of the universe shall be vanished at this very moment in reality viz. the realism is that everything is the reflection of imagination. Therefore, we can decision "In everything of the nature's plan is the imagination" for which the reality shall not be sought. (Right: Writer) Shahidur Rahman Sikder

Argh! The above is somewhat clumsy use of English. It kept introducing unsubstantiated new concepts: e.g. it claimed that "at the first and last situation of which there remains no balance", which could be a reference to the omnipresence of low-level underlying chaos "eligible of applying imagination power is inside our brain", which was rather confusing. It claimed "The past of all thing of the cosmic world of the universe is high power", but is it claiming that the past is higher power than the present and future, or is it not commenting on the comparison of power existing in the past, present and future? The law of conservation of energy would dictate that there is always a roughly equal amount of power being exerted. The above piece of writing is all rather unclear, to me.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 211.28.25.141 (talk • contribs) .


I have completely redone the article

wikipedia asked for an expert so I came to help y'all out. I know the theory of everything because I've discovered the definition of 1/0. Kudos —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.138.20.125 (talk) 23:01, 6 December 2006 (UTC).

Someone please undo whatever other damage this poor guy might of done elsewhere. (QUINTIX 03:55, 7 December 2006 (UTC))

I returned the page to its previous form... Poor guy...

Excuse me, but this is not constructive talk. Please do not refer to me as poor guy. I have never done so to you. I understand that wikipedians should be dilligent but not rude. respectfully, Archetype

ps. if you would like to discuss the reciprocal of 0 or if you have any questions about it, please, by all means

I would like to be a good Wikipedian and assume good faith, but you're making things difficult by continually inserting the same text over and over despite the objections of other editors, and switching computers to evade blocking. The fact that the computers you are using is located at New Mexico Tech makes it even more difficult for me to believe these edits are being made in good faith. Tubezone 18:13, 7 December 2006 (UTC)

another expert is needed

I need someone who is as smart as me to come in and verify these three most fundamental definitions

  • 0/1=nothing (same as 0/2, 0/3, etc.)
  • 0/0=anything
  • 1/0=everything (same as 2/0,3/0, etc.)

furthermore, these properties must be confirmed

  • 0/1 is neither positive nor negative
  • 1/0 is both positive and negative (simultaneously)

once someone of mark and intelligence can boldy step forward and confirm these truths then we can move forward with this article and mankind can rise above this petty squabbling and embrace the reality of absolute truth and limitless power for the betterment of all

sincerley, Archetype —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 129.138.2.105 (talk) 17:42, 8 December 2006 (UTC).

Go take a math class. 0/x = 0 for every x. x/0 is undefined for every x. 0 is neither positive or negative, and 1/0 is undefined so it doesn't make any sense to talk about wheter or not it's positive or negative. Now stop implying you're some kind of genius in maths because you don't know even know the most basic things about sets or fields. Headbomb 16:22, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

<<<Personal theory by user:72.16.111.54‎ signed as "sincerely, Archetype" deleted `'mikka 19:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)>>>

Don't feed trolls. Wikipedia is not place for personal theories. Please don't engage in discussions here. There are plenty of other places on 'net to chat. This talk page is for discussing encyclopedic content of the current article. `'mikka 19:26, 29 December 2006 (UTC)


The following defense was deleted by mikka on december 29th

Reposted by Archetype on January 03. Thank you kindly for your reply dear Headbomb, for it is much better to have an argument than to have people blindly ignoring. Let me inform you that I have taken a math class, or two. I have taken up to calculus 3 and I scored in the top %99 percent for math on my ACT. May I ask you what math you've taken?

I am actually very well versed in mathematics and I am currently majoring in Physics and Environmental Engineering at New Mexico Tech. So no, I am not an idiot. I started off with Environmental Engineering and then decided to add Physics after I discovered the definition, and thus the theory of, everything.

So just listen to me for a second and don't be so pessimistic. 1/0 is the amount of energy that makes up all of existence. This amount is so great, it is literally the greatest amount possible. 1/0 is such a great number in fact, that it is absolutely both positive and negative. By this I mean that 1/0 is simultaneously less than negative infinity and greater than positive infinity!!! Pretty amazing huh?

Just to give you a brief synopsis, allow me to comment on your argument. You say 0/x=0 for every X. That is totally true... except of course in the case when x=0. You should know this if you know your math. When x=0, 0/X can equal any number, not just zero. So in other words, zero divided by any number except zero equals zero, whilst zero divided by zero equals any number (in math they call it indeterminate, but I'm putting it in lamens terms).

So let's review real quick. Zero divided by zero equals anything, and zero divided by any other number besides zero equals nothing. Now listen up because here comes the part that nobody has told you about: If zero divided by any other number is nothing then any other number divided by zero equals (drum roll please)... everything.

Right? Right!

Think about it and realize; it's complex, yet so simple. Nothing=0/1=0/2=0/3 etc. etc. etc. Conversely, Everything=1/0=2/0=3/0 etc. etc. etc.

Now then, the only reason why they said 1/0 was undefined, instead of just going ahead and defining it (i.e. as the amount of energy in all of existence), is because they couldn't get their heads around the fact that negative infinity and positive infinity come together at a point without cancelling. They never understood or could see "through the looking glass," that the number line is really a number circle. It was illogical to them to thing of things in this complete way. But all of us can understand it I think. It's totally amazing and it really makes you think about everything in a whole new light (no pun intended). Anyway, hopefully I've been able to show you that there are some things that you never knew. It's just a simple balance of yin and yang: positive and negative infinity, fused together at a point opposite from 0 on the number circle. It's so simple, yet so incredibly beautifully complex in the same right. It's just like what Godel had predicted only you've got to see it for what it is, and that is the irony of truth, that everything is both positive AND negative when you consider everything!!!! There is a negative aspect of time that we don't comprehend, a reverse universe so to speak. You see, there's a lot of stuff. But first you've got to accept the fact that what I'm telling you is honest and that this isn't some sort of sham or silly nonsense.. sincerely, Archetype —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.16.111.54 (talk) 23:02, 3 January 2007 (UTC).

You can argue tooth and nails about this if you want, division by zero is, and will remain, undefined because dividing anything by 0 has no meaning. Read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Division_by_zero and get educated. If that still doesn't convince you, walk in the math department and ask about why division by zero is an undefined operation. Headbomb 21:10, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for the comment. I am very well educated so don't take me the wrong way. 1/0 is undefind because it can be shown by limits to approach both positive AND negative infinity, and this is a contradiction to most mathematicians. What they have failed to do, however, is take it at face value. Now I ask you, what is the problem with taking something at face value? If you take everything at face value, then nothing is undefined. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.114.185.27 (talk) 00:11, 29 January 2007 (UTC).