Talk:The Waste Land

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[edit] Allusions in Burial of the Dead

I am a student at Athens State University and new to Wikipedia. I added a section on the Burial of the Dead and a couple of additional sources.

[edit] Copyright?

who has the copyright on the waste land?

No one. It was first published in 1922, anything published before 1923 is in public domain. [1]
I believe this is incorrect. The Harvest/HBJ edition of The Waste Land And Other Poems is copyright 1930, with extensions in 1958 and 1962. After Eliot's death, his second wife, Valerie, extended the copyrights. --Theoldanarchist 03:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)
TWL with the notes was first published in the U.S. in 1922. That makes it public domain in the U.S. now. However, it might still be under copyright protection elsewhere. TWL still could have been included with other poems later and a new copyright given to the collection. WikiParker 10:55, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Ivory men line

What is the source of the information about Vivien requesting deletion of the ivory men line? There is no mark in the manuscript and she has marked other sections. The article is not entirely clear about which line or lines she wished deleted. — Stumps 12:15, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

On page 126 of the Facsimile And Transcript, note number four for page 13 of A Game Of Chess, it says 'This line was omitted at Vivien Eliot's request.' It gives no other information, other than Eliot restoring the line, from memory, for a copy sold in aid of the London Library in 1960.--Theoldanarchist 03:09, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] added note about dedication

I've added a bried note about Eliot dedicating the poem to Ezra Pound. Freddie deBoer 19:23, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Analysis / Interpretation?

Could someone please write an "Analysis" or "Interpretation" section (e.g. using this as a source)? I think it'd be helpful but I can't write it myself. --Zoz (t) 16:14, 2 April 2006 (UTC)

Thank you Zoz for the link to my website but I think that the article on The Waste Land would be better if it didn't have an interpretation of the poem in it. There are way too many of them. I think that a short history of interpretations over time would be better. For that I think that Columbia Critical Guides' "T.S. Eliot: The Waste Land" edited by Nick Selby would be useful. WikiParker 11:14, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Unreference material

Stumps queried this addition by an anon editor and asked for citations. I have removed it from the article to here, until citations are provided. Addition follows:

Many critics have suggested that the composition of "The Waste Land" rather closely mirrors the early chapters of James Joyce's "Ulysses" in terms of thematics and imagery. Joyce himself considered Eliot nothing short of a plagiarist . He commemorates his impression of Eliot by referring to him as 'ildiot' in "Finnegans Wake."


Tyrenius 23:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, I was actually coming to delete this as well, because here: http://fweet.org/cgi-bin/fw_grep.cgi?srch=ildiot&icase=1&accent=1&regex=1&beauty=1&hilight=1&showtxt=1&escope=1&tscope=1&rscope=1&dist=4 ildiot means worm, or warm. The statement was very misleading, and almost "ildiot" within itself. Might I add, this is why people don't trust Wikipedia. I myself wasn't too sure of this statement and looked it up, because I know of no times T.S. Eliot is mentioned in bad terms with Joyce. willsy May 12 2006 28:34


Just an outsider's comment (sorry if this in some way fails to follow Wikipedia's conventions, with which I am not familiar). I am the maintainer of the Fweet website, which was used as a corroborating reference a few lines above. Unfortunately, it seems willsy has misunderstood the non-trivial conventions of the Fweet website. When one searches for a word (e.g. "ildiot") in the Finnegans Wake text, one receives all the notes (called elucidations) for the entire line located, in this case page 037 line 14, not just those for the word searched. Thus, "warm" is an elucidation for "worm", not for "ildiot". This said, Fweet elucidates "ildiot" as a portmanteau word composed of "Danish ilden: light" and "idiot". I currently would not read "Eliot" into this portmanteau word, but others may. Now for the Eliot/Joyce controversy. The source for the statement that started this discussion is probably William York Tindall's 1969 book A Reader's Guide to Finnegans Wake, that reads on page 60: "But the Cad is also "ildiot" or T.S. Eliot [...] (Joyce, as we have also noticed, always insisted that Eliot stole The Waste Land from Ulysses)". The centrepiece argument for this theory about Joyce's view of Eliot as expressed in Finnegans Wake is Nathan Halper's long article "Joyce and Eliot" which appeared in A Wake Newslitter, volume II, numbers 3 (June 1965), 4 (August 1965) and 6 (December 1965).
85.130.145.94 11:34, 13 May 2006 (UTC) Raphael Slepon (http://www.fweet.org)

This is interesting ... perhaps we should make some reference to this in the "Sources" section of the article? — Stumps 12:14, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Eh, I don't know. I don't mind, but it just seems off topic and a opinion of an essayist. Sorry for the link and harsh judgement. Someone has brought to my attention similarities of other Wake lines and the Waste Land though, but not in negative terms. It seems as though Joyce used and parodied some of the Waste Land to actually compose some of the Wake, ironic? Well, that's really all I have to say. Peace. willsy May 13 2006 23:00

[edit] Aldous Huxley?

The article stated that Eliot makes allusions to Aldous Huxley. The Waste Land was published in 1922, and at that time Huxley had written one novel, a few short stories, and a few poems, but nothing so important and noteworthy that Eliot would have been likely to reference it and by doing so place it on the same level as all these other (for the most part) incredibly important works. I find it highly implausible to think that this reference exists. So, until such time as it can be proven that Eliot directly references Huxley, I have removed Huxley's name from the list of allusions. Superunknown373 18:42, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

In Aldous Huxley's Crome Yellow (1921) a fair is thrown and the Mr. Scogan character (generally seen to be a not very sympathic protrayal of Bertrand Russell) volunteers to be a fortune teller. He dresses as a gypsy woman and takes the name Sesostris, the Sorceress of Ecbatana. Eliot once said about TWL "To me it was only the relief of a personal and wholly insignificant grouse against life; it is just a piece of rhythmical grumbling." Part of the grumbling surely is Russell's relationship with Mrs. Eliot. See, for example: Grover Smith, "T.S. Eliot's Poetry and Plays: A Study in Sources and Meanings," chapter 6, paragraph 8. WikiParker 23:01, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Yes, WikiParker is absolutely correct. I am glad you caught that allusion and included it in the article. The Bertrand Russell comparison is especially interesting given Eliot's relationship with Russell (he and Vivienne had rented a room from "Bertie") and the falling out they had. One wonders if that did not have something to do with Eliot's decision to include the Huxley material. --Charles 05:20, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I have reinserted Huxley's name in the section on allusions. --Charles 05:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
It would be good to put a brief summary of this point in a footnote. Fascinating. Tyrenius 10:27, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
Agree ... I didn't know this. Actually I think it is worth more than a footnote. BTW, I find the simple list of names in the sources section particularly uninteresting ... a short paragraph on each of them would be far better. Stumps 11:09, 18 May 2006 (UTC)
I agree about that list---not interesting or inspiring. As soon as I have some time, I'll start making improvements. I hope that I will have help. --Charles 17:39, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Hypertext link

I have added a new link to a page that offers a hypertext version of the poem. This is a great idea, especially for a poem like TWL that is so full of allusions and references to numerous sources. However, this particular hypertext version does not work correctly 100% of the time, and seems not to have been well designed. Does anyone know of any other such site? ---Charles 21:11, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Why use "The New American Bible"?

I think that the quotations in the section on allusions in "The Burial of the Dead" should not be from The New American Bible as that version, published in 1970, was most certainly not the one that influenced Eliot. Why not use the King James version? Does anyone know what English version of the Bible Eliot most likely used and relied on? Interlingua talk email 13:49, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Great point! Eliot probably used the King James Version of the Bible. I went ahead and changed the quotations and referenced that version. --JHarbin 68.191.104.199 02:31, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
I posted a query to the TSE discussion group. Although I didn't get a definitive answer I did get a reply that the English Revised Version authorized by the Church of England (1881) and the American Standard Version (1901) were much like the King James bible; only changing obsolete words. WikiParker 00:16, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fabbro = liar?

Does anyone have respectable sources for the interpretation of "fabbro" as "liar"? As it is, it seems to be original research (and not very convincing, really). RodC 17:52, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No, I have seen that somewhere. I will look it up when I am back at home in my office. That is a legitimate interpretation (kind of a stretch), but it should be referenced. ---Charles 17:57, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Remember that this should be in Dante's Italian. Stumps 19:41, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I've read a LOT about The Waste Land and I've not seen this "liar" bit presented anywhere else. I think it would need a citation to indicate that fabbro = liar. Then did Eliot know of this meaning? His Italian came from reading Dante face to face with an English translation. Then, even if those tests were met, does it add anything to understanding TWL? And, if so, is it worthwhile to put into a short encyclopedia article? I think you can guess that I would prefer that the "liar" section be deleted. WikiParker 22:48, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, now that I am looking again, I cannot find the reference. In answer to your concerns, WikiParker, I would have to say that I agree with you. If the translation is legitimate, and as I say, it is, according to my reading, a stretch, it is still not entirely relevant. By all interpretations, that was not Eliot's meaning when he dedicated the poem to Pound, so it is really beside the point. In the final analysis, it is not needed, and to quote Pound, "One don't miss it at all as the thing now stands." ---Charles 03:13, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm also in favour of removing the 'liar' speculation. Stumps 10:11, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Done. RodC 01:10, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Publishing history

In this article a reference is made to the first 1923 UK book edition of the wasteland. It states that the type was handset by Virginia Woolf. Can anyone corroborate or verify that information? Did it come from a book source?

Thanks in advance for any help. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Mrsradcliffe23 (talk • contribs) 12:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC).

Gallup, Donald. T.S. Eliot: A Bibliography (A Revised and Extended Edition) Harcourt, Brace & World, New York, 1969. Listing A6c on page 61 states: "The book was hand-printed by Leonard and Virginia Woolf and several misprints were not corrected." WikiParker 21:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorporate?

I deleted as being too detailed the following paragraphs from the more general article T. S. Eliot. Perhaps they could be modified and used here.

When the facsimile edition of the original manuscript for The Waste Land was published in 1971, it was revealed that Ezra Pound's redaction of the work was quite substantial. The poem is dedicated to Pound, whom Eliot calls il miglior fabbro "the better craftsman", a quotation from Dante.

Eliot's work was hailed by the W.H. Auden generation of 1930s poets. On one occasion Auden read out loud the whole of The Waste Land to a social gathering. The publication of the draft manuscript of the poem in 1971 showed the strong influence of Ezra Pound upon its final form, before which it had been titled "He Do the Police in Different Voices". Part IV, Death by Water, was reduced to its current 10 lines from an original 92 — Pound advised against Eliot's thought of scrapping it altogether. Eliot thanked Pound for "helping one to do it in one's own way". Critic Robert Brustein claimed in 1957, "It's doubtful any greater poem can be written in this century or any century. Eliot inspires all to cease attempting."[1]

WikiParker 23:32, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that this can be of use here. The Auden part can probably go---or, if kept, should be moved elsewhere as it makes no sense in its current location. But, certainly, the details about Pound's editing of the original poem, and the other revelations that came with the publication of the facsimile and transcript are very enlightening. ---Cathal 23:38, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Importance Ranking

I am slightly concerned that this text has not been ranked in the Importance Rankings carried out on most literary works. Obviously I appreciate that there are an almost limitless number of literary texts to judge but The Waste Land is one of the most important and influential poems of the Twentieth Century and should therefore be ranked quickly so that those who do not know of its importance can be enlightened. When it is eventually ranked it should be placed in the 'Top' category of importance. Is there a general agreement on this? Robsonm 14:20, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

There is a WikiProject for poetry and their project page references this one, but I don't see any direct signs of activity. So I've add the template they suggest on their proejct page. I don't see a fancy template for poems either. They could easily steal from the Novel project (unless that is too prosaic). (John User:Jwy talk) 00:26, 2 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion of mention of Lewis/Schiff correspondence

Today I removed the sentence "On 7 February 1921, Wyndham Lewis told Sydney Schiff that he had seen a new long poem of Eliot's, in four parts, and marking a new departure in style." The four part poem shown to Lewis could not have been TWL as the writing hadn't progressed that far. See T.S. Eliot: The Making Of An American Poet, 1888-1922 by James E. Miller, pp.366-367. WikiParker (talk) 16:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation Section

This is often used on a philosophical basis. I believe an interprtetation section should be added. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 161.97.162.21 (talk) 19:44, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

As I wrote earlier in the 'Analysis / Interpretation? section of this page:
I think that the article on The Waste Land would be better if it didn't have an interpretation of the poem in it. There are way too many of them. I think that a short history of interpretations over time would be better. For that I think that Columbia Critical Guides' "T.S. Eliot: The Waste Land" edited by Nick Selby would be useful.
WikiParker (talk) 20:35, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
I agree with you, Parker. An interpretations section would end up being entirely too long. But, a history of interpretations, as you suggest, would be more managable, and probably more helpful. ---RepublicanJacobiteThe'FortyFive' 04:04, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
The history of interpretations is a good idea, it is genuinely encyclopedic, whereas a straight interpretation section runs the risk of descending into original research. We should not worry about size of the section as we can always fork off a separate Interpretations of The Waste Land page if needs be, and summarize it on the main page. Stumps (talk) 04:38, 28 February 2008 (UTC)