Talk:The Tale of Igor's Campaign

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Change for better style.Herbivore 18:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC) This article is part of Wikipedia:Russian History Harmonization. If you have a comment which might be relevant for other articles on Russian history, consider posting at Wikipedia talk:Russian History Harmonization.

The language differences between this document and early Russian to the north were immediately evident when this document was discussed in literary circles of Imperial Russia. Genyo 15:01, 24 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The article is not about the litarary merits of the text but about its disputed authenticity. It mentions all kinds of obscure amateurs and foreigners who dared to challenge the monument, and yet it says nothing about all the great Slavic scholars who spent all their life studying Old East Slavic, for whom the idea to question its authenticity seemed utterly ridiculous. The 18th-century Russia had neither scholars to understand the Old East Slavic so perfectly, nor the great poets capable of creating such a masterpiece. As Nabokov put it, there is not a single work in the world literature that could approach the Lay by sheer range and complexity of its prose rhythms. ---Ghirlandajo 21:38, 06 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Don't be too upset about it. You are not alone. It's a known problem with Wiki in general. For example, see K5 discussion or Slashdot discussion. --Gene s 08:02, 6 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Dobrovsky was not an 18th century Russian scholar (they would indeed have been unable to write a text like that). He was Czech, and the leading Slavist of his age. In addition, it is highly suspicious indeed that not a single manuscript has survived, and the authenticity of the Igor Tale

This is not suspicious at all, given the age and content of the text. Nikola

---It is incredibly suspicious when other early East Slavic texts survive in multiple manuscripts and are quoted or show influence on other texts. The Igor Tale has not influenced a single other work of Old East Slavic Literature. It could be argued that Zadonshchina was influenced by the Igor Tale but the influence could have gone just as easily the other way. And Zadonshchina did influence other OES texts, which cannot be said of IT.

What other East Slavic texts have survived in "multiple" manuscripts? BloodyBastard (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

has been the subject of scholarly debate even before Keenan's well-argued book came out. It may be

It was, and I'll write something about it. But the debate is mostly over. Nikola

a good idea to actually read the book before condemning it. Keenan is not an "obscure amateur". Keenan is a professor at Harvard University. http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~history/fac/keenan.html

His page has been moved to http://www.linguistics.ucla.edu/people/keenan/keenan.htm . Nikola

---No, that is not the same Edward Keenan.

None of those who know anything about the subject, including Russian scholars in the area, dispute Keenan's enormous qualifications, though that does not mean he is necessarily right in his view on the Igor Tale. And Keenan, too, spent his life studying Old East Slavic.

Enormous qualifications? Entire life? On his page, most listed works are about Malagasy, not a single one of them has anything to do with a Slavic language. Nikola

---You're looking at the wrong Keenan's webpage. Keenan trained a generation of Harvard Slavic scholars to read Old East Slavic, along with several other famous linguists.

Also, it is somewhat suspicious that the text was found at a time when the Czechs and other Slavs in the Habsburg Empire were trying to show the historical value of their culture; it just came in too handy. And how did Czech words get in there, especially if they haven't been found in any other comparable work?

This is not an argument! What "czech words" have been found in text? In what "comparable works" they havent been found? BloodyBastard (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

---It is also suspicious that Dobrovsky's students were behind the so-called Czech Forgeries.

Well, if Dobrovsky was such a linguist as you describe him, the last thing he would do would be inserting some Czech words in the text. This argument is moot. Nikola 08:27, 1 August 2005 (UTC)

Tut tut, all this is muddying the waters. The authenticity of the Igor Tale is not proved by wrongly calling Keenan a "journalist", as he is in the article, or by misleadingly substituting a namesake, the UCLA linguist to which Nikola refers us. The Keenan whose book you should read before you burn it is a highly respected Harvard Slavist and historian. See http://www.fas.harvard.edu/~history/facultyPage.cgi?fac=keenan\ Let's have some respect for the facts, OK?

I am not going to dispute the autority of professor Keenan. I just want to know exactly what ideas his scepsis is based on? Nothing conviencing have been put forward so far:( BloodyBastard (talk) 23:58, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

Contents 1 ghirlandaio, you need to grow up 2 Mistake? 3 Missing Plot 4 Bias 5 Is this considered a novel? 6 Yuri Lotman argumensts 7 Panslavism agenda 8 Epos Name in Ukrainian 9 Panslavism 10 The Tale of Igor's Campaign

[edit] ghirlandaio, you need to grow up

You have been presented with evidence time and time again that Edward L. Keenan is a distinguished professor of Slavic history and the head of the Dumbarton Oaks Library research center run by Harvard University (not some random journalist whose character you can feel free to impugn).

Neither Keenan nor any other historian is competent to judge on the authenticity of the 800-year-old literary text. It takes a linguist to do so. I'm not aware of any linguists who question the authenticity of this work, as this is impossible. --Ghirlandajo 06:24, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

---Keenan has had extensive philological training and is more than adequately prepared for this work.

You need to put your nationalism aside for a moment and rethink your commitment to the truth. Also, you need to learn the English orthography. It's the "Igor Tale" not "the Igor's Tale."

The Britannica editors obviously need to learn what you call orthography too, as they translated the title as "The Song of Igor's Campaign" (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9042069). And you need to learn a rule to sign your comments, too. --Ghirlandajo 06:24, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Mistake?

Слово о плъку Игоревѣ Shouldn't it be Слово о пълку Игоревѣ I'm not an expert, but the transliteration says so :) -Iopq 01:11, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I believe it should. --Ghirlandajo 07:03, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I fixed it, and I also fixed the transliteration. -Iopq 05:43, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Missing Plot

The "Plot" part doesn't say much about the plot. Please have a go at it, this sounds like an interesting story, TIA.

[edit] Bias

"As Vladimir Nabokov put it, there is not a single work in world literature that could approach the tale by sheer range and complexity of its prose rhythms. 18th-century Russia had neither the scholars to understand Old East Slavic so perfectly, nor the great poets capable of creating such a masterpiece."

---Indeed, 21st century scholars haven't even been able to understand it. The text is a linguistic mess and is not representative of Old East Slavic language at ANY stage of its development. Nationalist Russian scholars just assume that anything the don't understand is a lost word that the genius author of the IT alone preserved. Believing in the IT's authenticity take so many leaps of faith and stretches of the imagination that only willfull blindness allows anyone to support its authenticity. Of course, Russian scholars have made an industry out of the study of IT and have a vested (economic) interest in seeing it maintain its exalted position in the canon.

Hi! It's me again.

This is biased. The alternative is to write "Vladimir Nabokov once said..." --VKokielov 05:32, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Change for better style.Herbivore 18:44, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Is this considered a novel?

If this work is considered a novel, please feel free to add to the top of this article (I'm just surfing by from another article so I don't know enough regarding this subject to make an informed judgement on whether it is applicable to the wikiproject or not). 23skidoo 05:58, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

It's not a novel...no way, no how. -Matthew Herrington

[edit] Yuri Lotman argumensts

"However, Yuri Lotman's opinion supports the view of inauthenticity of the Tale, based on the absence of a number of semiotic elements in the Russian language before the 18th century that are present in the Tale, notably "Russian Land ("русская земля")".

The famous Primary Chronicle (which was written before Tale) starts with

"Се повести временныхъ летъ .... отъкуду есть пошьла руськая земля и къто въ неи почалъ пьрвее къняжитию и отъкуду руськая земля стала есть"

what means

"These are the stories of begone years .... where the russian land has came from(or derived from ) and who was its first knyaz and where has the russian land appeared from (or has begun from)...."

So Yuri Lotman lies:) BloodyBastard (talk) 23:27, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Panslavism agenda

"Historians and philologists, however, still continue to question the tale's authenticity, due to an uncharacteristic modern nationalistic sentiment (cf.Panslavism) contained therein (Omeljan Pritsak inter alia). The Tale is sometimes considered to have an agenda similar to that of Kraledvorsky Manuscript."

Yes, the ideas of Panslavism in slavic poem!! This is something incredible indeed :)

The presence of other fake manuscripts doesnt prove the inauthenticity of Tale by any means. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BloodyBastard (talk • contribs) 00:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Epos Name in Ukrainian

It is written in the main article "Modern Ukrainian: Слово о полку Ігоревім, Slovo o polku Ihorevim". This title was used in the Soviet times and is not accurate, because in modern Ukrainian the word 'полк' differs in meaning from the Midieval language: now it means 'regiment', before it was 'campaign', also the preposition 'о' is not used in modern Ukrainian (we use 'про' instead), so the correct title used in modern Ukrainian is 'Слово про Ігорів похід' ('Slovo pro Ihoriv pohid').

For example, here is one of the translations to the modern Ukrainian: http://litopys.org.ua/slovo67/sl36.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.112.222.144 (talk) 04:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Panslavism

Historians and philologists, however, still continue to question the tale's authenticity, due to an uncharacteristic modern nationalistic sentiment (cf.Panslavism) contained therein (Omeljan Pritsak inter alia).

Is the editor who wrote this still around? How did Panslavism make it into this article? Sotnik (talk) 07:56, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] The Tale of Igor's Campaign

I'm curious why the title is translated in this way when the actual meaning of the title is "regiment" and not campaign, even if that is the substance of the text?--mrg3105 (comms) ♠♥♦♣ 01:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)