Talk:The Song of Roland

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[edit] Let's improve this article!

I changed the order and format of this article to make it more similar to Beowulf, which I judged to be of similar interest and importance. Beowulf is currently at a B rating. I also looked at Nibelungenlied for ideas. Here are some things I think need attention, and I'll get to them at some point if no one else does:

  1. Plot summary needs to be tightened/shortened
  2. Character descriptions can be improved; characters can be added
  3. Themes/allusions should be added
  4. References from popular culture should be added in the appropriate section
  5. AOI controversy/scholarship should be added to manuscript section
  6. Other???

Thanks! Portia1780 03:23, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] In need of clean up

Marsilion and Marsile, though interchangable, should not be dually employed. Mention them both at the outset and then choose one for the rest.

Done. Portia1780 03:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Origin of the tradition

Can someone fill in the reference, which I have lost, to the historical source which says, fairly soon after Roncevaux, that the names of the participants were on everyone's lips? Andrew Dalby 20:45, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I've found it now (thanks to Lewis Thorpe's notes to his Penguin translation of Einhard) and inserted the reference. Andrew Dalby 17:25, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Version of Ibn al-Athir

I have put in some links here. The main reference seems to me to be to Sulayman al-Arabi, who is described in his own article as Wali of Barcelona, not Governor of Saragossa. If I am wrong in making this link, please unlink it! Andrew Dalby 12:05, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Anglo-Norman?

The french wikipedia says that there are 9 old manuscrits of the song among which one is Anglo-Norman. The others are all in old french. The english article beging by saying that it "is the oldest major work of French literature". Then it goes on talking only about the Anglo-Norman version. This seems a little bit like the English version of everything. Would it make sens to clarify that?

--Martin.komunide.com 14:39, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it isn't "the English version of everything", because, believe it or not, the French Wikipedia is also talking entirely about the "Anglo-Norman text" (the Oxford manuscript) throughout (except for that early sentence about the nine manuscripts). It is practically the only version that anyone reads. But thanks to Joseph Duggan's multi-version edition it is now easy to read them all. If anyone has access to Duggan's edition and would like to set out a few differences between the versions, wouldn't that be nice ... Hard work though.
Also, it's slightly misleading to say that "the others are all in Old French", first because Anglo-Norman is Old French in a sense, second because some of the others are in Franco-Italian, which varies just as much from a putative Old French "standard" as Anglo-Norman does. Andrew Dalby 16:29, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Stephen King

Someone should mention that Roland in Stepen King's Dark Tower Series gets his name from The Song Of Roland. This is mentioned in the preface of one of the books in the series.

Are you sure it's not from Robert Browning? "Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came"
Its from both.
I don't think that should be in this article but should go ahead and be in an article about Stephen King's and his books.

[edit] Warren Zevon

Any truth to the notion that Warren Zevon's Roland the Headless Thompson Gunner was inspired by The Song of Roland? --Davecampbell 23:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] legend vs. history

Although historically the book is almost totally inaccurate, something did occur there there with the Basques. What happened? Please reply to my talk page. Jim Bart 19:11, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

See paragraph 2 of the article, and follow the link to battle of Roncevaux Pass. Hope that helps. Andrew Dalby 19:30, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

This seems like vandalism to me:

"In one manuscript, a hideous monster named Blankenship wields stupidity like a dangerous weapon, killing Charles."

Perhaps someone doesn't like a fellow named Blankenship and slipped that in. Can someone who is an expert verify?

Quite right. Thanks. I've removed it. Andrew Dalby 14:05, 28 February 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Date

The ms. used to be dated to the late 11th C., very possibly before the First Crusade. What's the basis for the new date of ca1140-ca1170? I'm not dispiuting it, just wondering why the change. If the later date is accurate, the article should make some mention of the poem's function as Crusader propaganda. PhD June 22, 2007

[edit] Random commentary

why was the song important to roland

It's not a song that's important to roland... It's the title given to the work.

what I don't understand is...Roland distrusts Marsilion, but Ganelon, Naimon and most of the others are in favour of trusting him. Charlemagne agrees, but Roland recommends that Ganelon be the one to take the agreement to Marsilion. This angers Ganelon, and while in Zaragoza, he plots revenge., why should Ganelon be angry at Roland if he is to deliver a message that he himself is in favor of? If Ganelon agrees with Marsillion, even though ROland doesn't, why should Ganelon be angry to belay something that he is in favor of? Why should Ganelon be mad at Roland..at all..basically?

I've heard that the anger between Ganelon and Roland may refer to some tradition that hasn't survived. I think he's also mad because the Saracens killed the last messengers sent by the Franks, and he worries this will happen to him.--Cuchullain 03:05, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Just because he's in favor of it, doesn't mean that he's willing to risk his life over it. When I read the text, I got the impression that Roland was clearly offering up his uncle to the wolves, so to speak. Near the end at the trial, you also see that Ganelon offers up a defense of vengeance because Roland "hated him" and "decreed death and suffering" for him (in the form of the mission - strophe 273).Portia1780 03:17, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Definite article

Why is this at "The Song of Roland" instead of just "Song of Roland"? Is there a good reason? Srnec (talk) 21:08, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Traditions on European and African islands

Apart from Orlando furioso, I have met at least one living tradition directly or indirectly based on The Song of Roland, namely the Karlamagnusar kvæði from the Faroe Islands (of which Hammershaimb choose 297 stanzas divided into 5 "threads" in his main published collection of Faroese floklore Færøsk Antologi); although few Faroese of to-day would know all verses by heart, they still use at least part of the ballad "threads" in their traditional Faroese dance.

Incidently, I once saw a (Swedish) TV programme from Cap Verde, if my memory is correct, about a kind of traditional theatre performed every year, also based on the Song of Roland. The programme showed preparations, interviewed the amateur artists, et cetera; and it was very clear that this was an important and very old tradition on the island(s). I don't remember the details; and I'm not even completely sure that it was from Cap Verde.

I might get around to add a line about the Faroese tradition and the Karlamagnusar kvæði. Does anybody know anything about this Cap Verde(?) tradition? JoergenB (talk) 21:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)