Talk:The Shaggs

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Is it just me, or are there too many commas in this article? --RoyBoy 08:44, 1 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Bold textThis stuff is terrible. It makes my ears bleed. This is the worst band IN THE WORLD! Lusanaherandraton 11:25, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] "Family dynamics"

I removed Rumor has it that Austin died immediately after hearing the girls do a finally decent version of the title track to POTW. Even if this wasn't just a joke, it's apparently unfounded. Helen says (in an interview from Rollerderby #20) that her father died having sex with one of her sisters. I had meant to include something on the abuse Austin inflicted along with his encouragement, but wasn't sure how to do so "encylcopedically," or whether it even falls within this article's scope. Lusanaherandraton 11:46, 21 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Helen Wiggin has several disparate statements attributed to her about the band and the circumstances surrounding Austin Wiggin's death. The claim that Austin died after hearing the Shaggs play a version of Philosophy of the World that he actually praised is sourced to Helen in several accounts I've read (notably one by Susan Orlean of The New Yorker/Adaptation fame). In my opinion it would be fine to leave in the POTW reference if properly sourced. As for the claim that Austin died while having sex with one of the Wiggin sisters, Helen has apparently claimed in the past that Austin was intimate with her on at least one occasion, but this has been disputed by Betty Wiggin. I've never seen the article mentioned above, but I'd be cautious about sourcing anything that was printed in Rollerderby given Carver's propensity for sensationalism and hyperbole.
I'm planning on doing a bit of work on this article, adding Frank Zappa's popularization of the band (he named it his 3rd all-time favorite album in a 1970 Playboy poll), fleshing out some sections about the band's "touring" schedule, and perhaps some additional information on Austin's efforts to make the Shaggs a band (forcing them to practice, do calisthenics for hours, be home schooled, etc.); all properly sourced of course. Isotope23 17:45, 20 July 2005 (UTC)


Question: Are we really saying death "seemed" to put an end to his ambitions?

In 1975, Austin Wiggin arranged one last recording session for his daughters, but died of a heart attack, which seemed to put an end to his ambitions.

  • Comment ha, good point. I don't see any evidence of zombie music managment by Austin. Wording is removed.--Isotope23 18:51, 3 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Zappa

Frank Zappa is believed to have claimed that The Shaggs were better than the Beatles. This could be just a rumour, but I tend to think that Zappa did say something like that. If he was serious is a different issue - he liked to throw people off track - but it might be an idea to put Zappa's remark in this article.

- FB

Not unless we've got a citation for it. — Gwalla | Talk 8 July 2005 01:06 (UTC)
He actually claimed The Shaggs were his 3rd favorite band in a 1970 Playboy Poll. I'm not aware of FZ ever saying The Shaggs were better than The Beatles though. Isotope23 17:47, 20 July 2005 (UTC)
Well, were the Beatles his 1st or 2nd favorite? ;) Brighterorange 14:14, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't remember... sheesh, it was from a 1970 issue... Still, even if The Beatles were #4 on his list of all-time favorite bands (hypothetically), you still couldn't really infer that he thought The Shaggs were better than The Beatles. There is a difference between "Favorite" and "Best". Isotope23 17:09, 21 July 2005 (UTC)

I know, I'm just teasing. Brighterorange 18:34, 21 July 2005 (UTC)
Heh, what's the wiki tag for sarcasm? Isotope23 16:15, 22 July 2005 (UTC)


[edit] Predictions

The idea of The Shaggs is older than the girls themselves. When the girls' father, Austin Wiggin, Jr., was young, his mother made three predictions: he would marry a strawberry blonde; he would have two sons she would not live to see; and his daughters would form a famous musical group. After the first two came true, Austin set out to make the third happen.

Amazing, but where is the source?

It's in Irwin Chusid's book.

[edit] NPOV issues

The following line has NPOV issues in my opinion..

"In fact, listening to the record, the band seems to have no sense of melody, harmony, or rhythm. It is as though the drums were recorded in a separate room from the guitars and neither could hear what the other was doing."

While it may be safe to say that some people probably would agree with the above statement, it certainly doesn't belong in there. Danger bird


(Response to unsigned comment above) Maybe this could be rephrased. What make these recordings unique (and indeed, beloved by some) is that they seem to have been recorded by feral children who had never even HEARD music before. None of the tracks synchs up with any of the others, and indeed, almost every single element associated with pop music is absent. Perhaps "no sense of" has a derrogatory connotation. However, the recordings really DO utterly lack melody, harmony and rhythm. Regarding the second sentence, find a musician and challenge them to play completely out of synch with a recording - it's hard! The two sentences you've highlighted could perhaps be rephrased, but to excise them would be to completely omit the entire essence of the Shaggs' "music" (if it may be so called): it it music created by outsiders which reflects perfectly that they lacked even the most basic knowledge of musical theory and how popular music is "supposed" to sound. Wencer 16:21, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

I tend to agree that it should be rephrased. The ironic appeal of the Shaggs' music comes at least in part from what others might call incompetence. The first time you hear it, you may well be moved to little other than contempt. If you are willing to listen a second time, and have some measure of musical sophistication, you will start to hear polyrhythms and highly unusual song structures. This is IMO how the Shaggs managed to get compliments from Frank Zappa, Jonathan Richman, and other professional musicians as mentioned in the article itself. Smerdis of Tlön 13:33, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
I've tried to rewrite the description of the music to make it slightly more NPOV, but perhaps at the expense of adding original research. I've tried to describe what I hear in the music. Smerdis of Tlön 20:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] all a joke

I haven't pored over enough Wikipedia stuff yet to know what the official policy is on jokes within write-ups but the Shaggs page and these discussions tells me that there is no uniformity on joking by users. Ok, fine. This reminds me a bit of a discussion on IMDB about the meaning of a Devo song, with some of the kids there insisting that it did not concern masturbation because one of the Devos was quoted as saying so. (I don't mean to suggest that Wikipedia is like IMDB however, as I have not found any of the sniping here that is so overpresent there, let alone the fawning praise of slop.) The Shaggs were a joke in general but, more importantly, much of what was said about them were jokes. Therefore what on earth is the difference whether citations are provided or not? I agree that citations are relevant to whether a quotation is correct or not but the quotation does not prove that what was said was true, people.

No, I do not have an answer to how to treat the Shaggs. I am quite happy with their article consisting mostly of fiction. And, if all users are intending their comments to be humor, super. I simply hope that it is realized that most of what has been said about the Shaggs were jokes and therefore discussing those quotes seriously is at best itself a joke, no? (Is there some Wikipedia piece on this topic which I haven't looked hard enough to find?) IanHistor 13:47, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

No, no, no, no. Lying is not joking. Discussing those quotes seriously is our duty to this resource. Truth is truth. --62.255.232.11 22:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment, read WP:V and notice the statement verifiability, not truth. Citations must be provided for statements/quotes. Whether the statements are "true" or not is irrelevant, just that they can be sourced to the person they are attributed to.--Isotope23 17:08, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] The Shaggs are my favorite band

I love this band's music. I don't understand why the article is so contentious. I could listen to this band for a year and not get bored. What's the deal?

  • Why is it so contentious? To quote the Shaggs:
Oh, the rich people want what the poor people's got
And the poor people want what the rich people's got
And the skinny people want what the fat people's got
And the fat people want what the skinny people's got
You can never please anybody in this world...
That answer your question?--Isotope23 16:03, 6 July 2007 (UTC)