Talk:The School of Athens

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[edit] Identification of Zoroaster

The person on the lower right holding a celestial globe and looking at Rafael, is usually identified as Zoroaster (Zarathustra), as is repeated on this page. However, I believe this is wrong:

• Zoroaster was a Persian profet: but as a Persian he has no business among Greek filosofers, and as a pagan profet he has no business in the personal quarters of the pope of Rome.
• He appears in conversation with another, younger, man, seen at the back, wearing a crown, and holding a terrestial globe. That other man is identified as Claudius Ptolemaeus. I endorse that: Ptolemy was famous for his Geography (as well as his astronomical works), and in medieval iconography he is often depicted with a crown because of his association by name to the Ptolemaic kings of Egypt. But then why would Ptolemy talk with Zoroaster?

The two man clearly form a couple. I think the most likely identification for the elder man is: Hipparchos. Ptolemy relied much on his work. Also Hipparchos is known to have made a celestial globe.

I should add that an arts historian that I asked about the question, does not like such identification games, and doubts that most of the figures were meant to represent any particular filosofer.

Tom Peters 10:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

It is probably true that for many of the figures in the painting the identification game is of dubious value, but scholars have been playing it for centuries and the article should reflect that. The idea that Zoroaster is there in the picture is very widespread and goes at least back to Giorgio Vasari's The Lives of the Artists: "una figura che (...) ha una palla del cielo in mano è il ritratto di Zoroastro" ("a figure who holds a celestial globe in his hand is Zoroaster"; Vasari mistakenly says he has his back turned, though). I don't think it's very strange by the way, that a Persian prophet is in a discussion with Greek philosophers; the idea of translatio artium, of art and wisdom passing from one culture to another, is an important theme of the fresco (note how Averroes is looking over the shoulder of Pythagoras). But if you know of a source that claims it's Hipparchos, please do add that to the article; it's good to suitly emphazi that most of the identifications are merely educated guesses. Skarioffszky 15:10, 9 October 2006 (UTC) P.S.: Interestingly, this Who is Who says it's Strabo...

Which I think is silly: Strabo was mostly a geographer, giving him a celestial globe because he believed in a heaven-earth connection sounds far-fatched. Hipparchos according to classical tradition had a celestial globe and was a most competent astronomer; also he was and is at least as well paired up with Ptolemy as Strabo. As for a source to claim the identification of Hipparchos: I just did, above. What are the compelling arguments to identify the figure with Zoroaster (or Strabo, for that matter)? Because Vasari said so? Could he have been wrong? Tom Peters 20:28, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Oh yes, I certainly think Vasari could be wrong. I also think your suggestion makes sense. But Vasari was living and working in Rome at a time when many of Raphael's friends an associates were still alive, he was the first Italian art historian, and four centuries of renaissance scholars have relied on him; that gives his views the notability that the ideas - no matter how sensible - of wikipedia users do not have. No original research and all that... This article makes the case that it is Strabo, but unfortunately I can't access it. Skarioffszky 20:54, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

One thing which seems odd in the initial poster's comments is how Zarathustra/Zoroaster would be considered inappropriate for such a piece of art for being a 'pagan profet' (which one might assume means 'pagan prophet') when one considers how the religion which Zarathustra espoused is closer in its theological leanings to that more commonly associated with the Vatican than that which the ancient Greeks would have practiced... --Nerroth 19:16, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

In response to Peters, if we look at figure 5, we see that the man depicted is Averroes or Ibn Rushd, a famous Persian philosopher, whom according to Peters criteria, would not be suitable within the fresco's Athenian context, yet, there he is. I'm not sure whether his depiction is contested, but from what I've gathered, it has been agreed that the man represented as number 5 is indeed Ibn Rushd, a Persian (non-Greek) scientist and philosopher. Based on this, Peters' assertion that "a Persian...has no business among Greek filosofers [sic]" would seem false. afakirani 10:34, 26 July 2007

[edit] IDs

Why are so few covered here? I don't see a problem with "John Doe or John Smith style entries". And how about some information about their forms, why Plato's pointing to the sky for example. Why not be more comprehensive? Kansaikiwi 12:21, 3 November 2006 (UTC)