Talk:The National Council Against Health Fraud/Archive 5

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.
← Archive 4 Archive 5 Archive 6 →


Contents

Proposed Section

This is my proposal. I welcome respectful input:

All the references are included in the history...However, I suspect some of this will need to be edited. This also is rather long, but at least it is not extremely lengthy and is not whole sections lifted from a website. I have changed it a little more here, than what was on the talkpage.

NCAHF Positions

Acupuncture

The NCAHF asserts that acupuncture is scientifically unproven as a modality of treatment. Research during the past twenty years has failed to demonstrate that acupuncture is effective against any disease. Perceived effects of acupuncture are probably due to a combination of expectation, suggestion and other psychological mechanisms. NCAHF states that "scientific literature provides no evidence that acupuncture can perform consistently better than a placebo in relieving pain or other symptoms for which it has been proposed". The use of acupuncture should be restricted to appropriate research settings. Insurance companies should not be required to cover acupuncture treatment, and licensure of lay acupuncturists should be phased out. [6].

Amalgam Fillings

There has long been controversy regarding the use of amalgam fillings by dentists,[1] because the amalgam contains mercury. Some forms of mercury are toxic to humans, but the NCAHF cites the CDC in stating that there is no evidence that "the health of the vast majority of people with amalgam is compromised" or that "removing amalgam fillings has a beneficial effect on health".[7] The NCAHF criticizes those who they believe exploit unfounded public fears for financial gain.[8] NCAHF asserts that breath, urine and blood testing for mercury are inaccurate. Other tests for mercury exposure described by the NCAHF as invalid can include skin testing, stool testing, hair analysis and electrodermal testing.[9]

Chiropractic

The NCAHF contends that chiropractic can be dangerous and lead to injury or permanent disability.[citations needed] However, the NCAHF does not categorically oppose the practice. NCAHF differentiates between what it calls "hucksters" and "scientific chiropractors". The latter should advance only methods of diagnosis and treatment which have a scientific basis. For example, NCAHF claims there is no scientific support for subluxation. Legitimate chiropractors should restrict the scope of practice to neuromusculoskeletal problems such as muscle spasms, strains, sprains, fatigue, imbalance of strength and flexibility, stretched or irritated nerve tissue, and so forth. Chiropractors should refer cases involving pathology to qualified medical practioners. [10] In contrast, "hucksters" suggest that chiropractic adjustment will cure or alleviate a variety of diseases, such as infection, arthritis, cancer, diabetes, nutritional deficiencies or excesses, appendicitis, blood disorders, or kidney disease. These practitioners use unproven, disproven, or questionable methods, devices, and products such as adjusting machines, applied kinesiology, chelation therapy, colonic irrigation, computerized nutrition deficiency tests, cranial osteopathy, cytotoxic food allergy testing, DMSO, gerovital, glandular therapy, hair analysis, herbal crystalization analyses, homeopathy, internal managements, iridology, laser beam acupuncture, laetrile, magnetic therapy,and so forth.

Diet Advice and Herbal Remedies

The NCAHF is opposed to dietary recommendations and practices not supported by scientific evidence that NCAHF recognizes, including behavior related claims. Unverified assessment methods such as iridology, applied kinesiology, routine hair analysis for assessment of nutritional status are routinely criticized or castigated. NCAHF and some of its members have long and actively opposed implementation of beliefs that they characterize as unfounded or unscientific.

NCAHF also questions the health claims, marketing, safety, efficacy and lableling of herbal supplements. Currently, herbal preparations are not regulated as drugs. The NCAHF advocates regulations for a special OTC category called "Traditional Herbal Remedies" (THRs) with an adverse reaction surveillence program, product batches marked for identification and tracking, package label warnings about proposed dangers of self-treatment, oversight requirements from outside of the herbal industry, and strong penalties for unapproved changes in herbal product formulations.[1]

Diploma Mills

A diploma mill or "degree mill" is described by the U.S. Office of Education as "An organization that awards degrees without requiring its students to meet educational standards for such degrees established and traditionally followed by reputable institutions." The NCAHF claims that many unqualified practitioners are able to mislead the public by using diploma mills to get "specious degrees". Diploma mills are not accredited, and frequently engage in "pseudoscience and food faddism". Diploma mills are harmful, both to the "students" and to the public. [12]


That would be perfect. Thank you for the effort. :) --Hughgr 03:56, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
They're absolutely unacceptable as they lack critical information about the NCAHF positions on these issues - which was the entire reason these sections of the article were written in the first place. Can we please get past Jance's attempts to censor valid information from the article? --Curtis Bledsoe 04:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Thank you, Hughgr. I think we need additional input, from Ronz, maybe others.Jance 04:12, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
These summaries are great. I'm for putting them in right away so editors can work on them within the article itself. --Ronz 04:23, 31 December 2006 (UTC)


Now that everyone's done with the self-congratulation, can we get back to the issue? No one has yet explained why the incomplete summaries are necessary or desireable. --Curtis Bledsoe 04:30, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
[2] --Ronz 04:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Cute, but utterly beside the point. Besides, the use of secondary sources in this context is absurd. The issue at hand is the position of the NCAHF, by definition, information on this subject cannot come from secondary sources. As I attempted to explain before, the issue at question isn't the validity of the organization's positions, but what those positions are. If the organization took the view that all homeopathic practitioners come from the planet Mars, we would still have to report the fact. We could, in the criticism section, include some secondary information that showed how unlikely it is that homeopaths are actually martians. But that doesn't change the original claim. Please indicate to me that you have gained some understanding of the point I'm trying to make because the way you keep on about secondary sources, it doesn't seem like you do. I'll keep explaining until you get it, I just want to know when to stop. --Curtis Bledsoe 04:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Sorry that you don't like my perspective. The secondary sources would help us to show notability of these positions and help us prioritize what we actually include in the article. --Ronz 04:55, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't dislike your perspective - how quick some people here are in assigning personal motive to dispassionate and constructive criticism. However, you're still incorrect. The question is not the validity or notability of the positions but what those positions are. To answer that question, primary sources are the only suitable means for determining the positions. If you wanted to know what Al Franken's position on an issue is, you wouldn't ask Rush Limbaugh, would you? No, you'd ask Al Franken, or, if he had a web site you would quote from his positions as expressed on that web site in order to ensure both accuracy and objectivity in reporting those positions. It wouldn't be fair to Mr. Franken if some wiki editor paraphased the details of his positions, possibly omitting some key detail dear to Mr. Franken's heart, would it? No, of course not. The only fair and accurate method would be to list Franken's positions on issues. Then, in the criticism section, people like Rush Limbaugh could be quoted, along with, say, Janeane Garafalo to provide some balance. Don't take this personally. Just because I'm telling you that you're wrong that doesn't mean I don't like you. In fact, if you think about it, it actually means the opposite. My taking time to point these things out to you is a gesture of respect. Someone less patient and understanding than myself probably wouldn't bother. --Curtis Bledsoe 05:51, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Did you acutally say this? Someone less patient and understanding than myself probably wouldn't bother. Now I have seen everything. By the way, since you are such a stickler on "accuacy" and "correctness", I will observe that your grammar is incorrect. The word "myself" is reflexive. Jance 06:46, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a reason your're inserting your incivil conduct into a conversation that doesn't concern you? BTW, you're wrong about reflexive pronouns. My usage in this case was correct as the subject and object of the sentence are the same. --Curtis Bledsoe 17:28, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
This is the sentence you wrote, " Someone less patient and understanding than myself probably wouldn't bother." Here, "myself" is not the same as "Someone." Eg, "myself" is not a predicate nominative. Also, "myself" is not an object. Therefore, you are incorrect. So you don't know everything. Amazing.Jance 02:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest that you do this, Ronz? I will help, but I would rather not make this edit, since Curtis has formally complained to ask that I be banned. Although it appears that nobody has agreed with him, I would rather not compromise my ability to edit. I can help you find the references, which are in the history.Jance 04:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I have not asked that you be banned. --Curtis Bledsoe 04:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Correction, blocked. (Another dangerous paraphrase)  ;-) Jance 04:44, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Well done. The first step to solving a problem is to admit the problem exists. ;-) --Curtis Bledsoe 05:37, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

If we could work out what the above summaries need, or need to have changed, we would have a concensus. Then they could get inserted into the article. Please don't let it get personal. It's only Wiki! :)--Hughgr 06:03, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

What they need is what was taken out - key information in the form of bullet-points quoted (not paraphased) from the original source. Without this, the summaries are worthless. --Curtis Bledsoe 06:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
in other words, he wants the entire sections that he added, copied directly from the website. This is WP:OWN and it is bad writing. If that is at all relevant in Wikipedia. Jance 06:32, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Clearly it isn't WP:OWN and I'm not sure you're in a position to comment on "bad writing" either way - even if you did it civilly, which you don't seem capable of doing. --Curtis Bledsoe 17:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Glad you agree about WP:OWN! Now we can move on.Jance 17:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Since you didn't understand the first time I said it, perhaps I should (though perhaps I shouldn't bother) repeat myself. Clearly it isn't (note additional emphasis) WP:OWN. --Curtis Bledsoe 17:31, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Curtis stop being so goddamn abusive. You are wrong,. Period, You tell me what one single editor agrees with you here. Anyone, except maybe Barrett (if he is that egomaniacal, then I have second thoughts about him). What you are doing is WP:OWN and abusive. Jance 20:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I think I now understand your incivility. You were reportedly blocked for it before but now you've come back under a pseudonym and it has multiplied. So my question is why do you continue to be incivil? --Curtis Bledsoe 20:29, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
You have to have the last word, is that it? Are you having fun yet? Or are you always this abusive?Jance 21:11, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
And I have no pseudonym. So your attempts at bullying won't work with me, Curtis. There is a reason I do the work I do.Jance 02:32, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Inserted Text

I have inserted the text, per our consensus. Here is one section that Curtis added, that needs to be edited properly. Please help with this:

Herbal Remedies

The NCAHF claims that the sale of OTC herbal remedies is a multi-billion dollar business. They describe the following as problems:

  • Unreliable Labeling
    • False and Misleading Labels. According to the claims of pharmacognosist Varro Tyler, less that half of the herbal remedied examined were accurately labelled. There are four ways in which herbs are commonly described: the English common name, the transliteration of the herb name, the latinized pharmaceutical name and the scientific name. Thus, ginseng can be referred to four different ways: "ginseng", "ren-shen", "radix ginseng" and "panax ginseng". However, the English term "ginseng" can also refer to P ginseng (a.k.a. "oriental ginseng"), P quinquefolius (a.k.a. "American ginseng") and Eleutherococcus senticosus (a.k.a. "Siberian ginseng") which, though they are referred to by the same generic name, are different plants.
    • Misinformation Mongering. Many individuals will, in order to promote their businesses and increase their profits, perpetuate false and misleading claims both about their own products but also about orthodox medicine.
  • Questions of Safety. In their natural state, herbs may vary in both potency and contain substances with unwanted side-effects.
    • Questions of Efficacy. Currently, herbal preparations are no regulated as drugs. The NCAHF believes that it would be in the interests of consumers for this to change.
  • Economic Issues.

To address these, and other issues, the NCAHF makes the following recommendations:

  • Establish a special category of OTC medicines called "Traditional Herbal Remedies" (THRs) regulated as follows:
    • Labels must alert consumers to the fact that herbal remedies are held to a lower standard than that applied to standard medicines. Suggested wording: "This product is regulated as a

Traditional Herbal Remedy, a special category of medicines not required to meet the full stipulations of the U.S. Food, Drug, & Cosmetic Act which are applied to standard medications."

    • Limit THR products to those with properties sufficiently documented in the pharmacognosy literature to assure an acceptable measure of safety and efficacy.
    • Limit herbal remedy products to those known not to have lethal or damaging side-effects when taken in overdose, or over an extended time period.
    • Limit THRs to the treatment of nonserious, self-limiting ailments.
    • Require THRs remedies to meet the same labeling standards for all drug products.
    • Require plant sources to be identified by their scientific names.
    • Require that all active ingredients (items that cause an effect) be quantitatively and qualitatively identified on the label.
    • Require herbal remedy products to contain sufficient amounts of pharmacologically active substances for the product to perform as expected. Only those expectations that can be supported by science should be permitted on labels. The FDA should develop a set of acceptable claims just as it has with health claims for food products.
    • Require labels to inform consumers about what effects they should expect. Suggested wording: (eg, valerian)

"The active ingredient in this product is valerian. Traditional folk medicinal uses for this substance include: as a sleep aid, and a relaxant. Valerian has been shown to depress the central nervous system at the doses indicated."

    • Require a highly visible, easily accessible postmarketing surveillance system for tracking unanticipated adverse reactions. The system must enable consumers as well as health professionals to report, and regulators to gather and disseminate information on adverse effects. A good candidate for the agency to receive reports is the U.S. Pharmacopeia Practitioner Reporting System which passes reports on to the FDA and Poison Control Centers. Suggested wording:

"Adverse reactions associated with the use of this products should be reported to 1-800-638-6725."

    • Require manufacturers to mark product batches for identification, testing, and tracking.
    • Require warnings about dangers of self-treatment on labels and/or package inserts. Suggested wording:

Caution: Self-treatment may delay proper health care. See a medical doctor if health problems persist.

    • Require substantial representation from outside of the herbal industry to assure sufficient skepticism in herbal regulation.
    • Impose strong penalties for adulterating herbal products with potentially dangerous substances.

Source: [1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jance (talk • contribs)

"a reductionist view"

I propose the following as a summary of the NCAHF herbal page, added to the Diet Advice section:

NCAHF also questions the health claims, marketing, safety, efficacy and lableling of herbal supplements. Currently, herbal preparations are not regulated as drugs. The NCAHF advocates regulations for a special OTC category called "Traditional Herbal Remedies" (THRs) with an adverse reaction surveillence program, product batches marked for identification and tracking, package label warnings about proposed dangers of self-treatment, oversight requirements from outside of the herbal industry, and strong penalties for unapproved changes in herbal product formulations.[1]--I'clast 23:48, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

  1. ^ a b c [http://www.ncahf.org/pp/herbal.html NCAHF Position Paper on Over-the Counter Herbal Remedies.] NCAHF. 1995. accessed online 31 Dec 2006.
That sounds good to me. Jance 23:57, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
I like that too. It's concise and to the point, well done.--Hughgr 00:56, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

Protected

The edit war has just stopped. Let the discussion begin. Guy (Help!) 20:24, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

We have consensus on the summaries above and on formatting other NCAHF policy statements in a like manner. --Ronz 20:33, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
The summaries above are factually inaccurate as they do not contain the actual positions of the NCAHF but rather paraphrases. Since a paraphase of a position is, by definition, not the actual position, they cannot be as accurate as the original position. Therefore, they are unacceptable as content for this portion of the article. If you want to paraphrase the positions of NCAHF in the criticism section, then go for it. But in the "Positions of the NCAHF" section, it simply won't fly. --Curtis Bledsoe 20:36, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
--Everyone else disagrees. Perhapes you can find us examples in other encyclopedia articles to demonstrate your point if you're going to continue to oppose consensus. --Ronz 20:41, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. No Wikipedia policy demands exact quotes in this situation, and there are many circumstances (much legal and medical writing, for example) where paraphrases are an improvement. Furthermore, this article links NCAHF position papers as references.
It may be helpful (though not entirely necessary) to include short-but-relevant quotes in the footnotes for the NCAHF in-line references. Many of the Citation templates contain a parameter for this. (I'm not certain what the fair use limits are on this sort of thing, but it shouldn't be a problem in this article.) / edgarde 21:09, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. I guess this means the consensus thus far is to not have the excessively long quotes - even if it is not a copyright violation.Jance 00:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. Curtis' stmt evinces no concept of encyclopedic summary & writing.--I'clast 00:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Strongly disagree. Of course WP must be allowed to rephrase while still keep the meaning unchanged. MaxPont 15:28, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Your opinions are noted and incorrect. The article is reporting the fact of the position. This can only be done by reporting what the positions are and the best way to do that is to use the bullet points from the actual positions. Paraphrasing the position is simply unacceptable. --Curtis Bledsoe 20:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Okay, Curtis, paraphrasing is incorrect according to you. However, that is not according to Wikipedia consensus. Your objection is noted, in many different locations. Your objection does not affect the editing of this article. Jance 21:48, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
  • Curtis, as a way forward, "bleh, that sucks!" is a good deal less productive than proposing alternate text. Guy (Help!) 20:53, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
What else can I say? The summary is accurate. It is even good grammar.  ;-) I suggest that Curtis start with what he considers inaccurate, and we can discuss it. Jance 21:05, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes that would be most helpful, a specific list of what he considers to be inaccurate. --Wildnox(talk) 21:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
Agree. Also an item that is too complex, too opinionated and too long will probably suffer frequent, even worse "accuracy" problems as well as not be encyclopedic. Summarize with *appropriate* hotlinked references, can't beat the clarity on positions.--I'clast 00:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I think the summary's with the link referenced are wholly adequate to get the NCAHF's point across. We don't need to copy an entire website here. If curtis would just explain what he feels is missing, we can get past this.............--Hughgr 01:13, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! It is very evident that Curtis is the only one that wants to recreate a website as a WIkipedia article. I think the matter is settled, especially since he is unwilling to discuss any summary. The only issues are what specifics might need 'tweaking'. For example, l'cast suggested a clear concise summary of "Diet Advice." I do not know how to prevent Curtis' reversion back to a version that is his own, and not the consensus. The article is protected now, but it also seems clear that Curtis is not willing to accept a consensus. Perhaps an admin can help us here. Jance 02:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure what an admin could do, other than block Curtis. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 06:49, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
True. Jance 07:19, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
I have two issues:
  1. The first is that if we accept verbatim lengthy block quotes from the NCAHF website, then it either has to be fair use, or the owner of the copyright has to relinquish all copyright (or alternatively re-copyright it under GFDL). Fair use, in terms of encyclopedia articles, does not include full reproduction of copyrighted web pages when a summary would be adequate, and a readily available reference to the original is given. Publishing the original under GFDL means that this text can then be copied, changed, misformed, sold as a book, used in advertisements, (etc etc) by anyone, without NCAHF being able to do anything about it at all, i.e they then have practically no say in what happens to their writing. So just saying Wikipedia can use it is not sufficient, it has to be released under the same licence as wikipedia, the GFDL, or it has to be public domain (compare requirements for illustrations). I do not think that that was the intention of the NCAHF spokesperson who said it was OK for Wikipedia to use the text. Does he realise that that means anyone can do with their text what they want to, without the NCAHF's permission? If so, one wants the change of copyright confirmed in writing.
  2. It is not, and has never been, standard practice for encyclopedias to quote the full policies or position statements of an organisation which is being described. I think one can take the article on the United States Constitution as a definitive example. If full text quotation were the normal standard, then I have little doubt that that article's succinct paraphrasing of every article would have incurred the wrath of the majority of the citizens of the USA. That has not happened, so by analogy it is not necessary to spell out verbatim the NCAHF position on anything, except where specific important words or phrases are quoted. Indeed, the extent to which the NCAHF position is being described in detail for every item seems to me already very close to advertisement or POV-pushing. An example is the paragraph long desciption of "huckster" chiropractic, with a list of all sorts of techniques, which gives me absolutely no (as in zero, nothing) information about the NCAHF itself. Had I written an article about the organisation, I would have abbreviated the summaries even more, since the originals are but a link away on the net. --Seejyb 09:16, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
You know, when I read the article, it looks encyclopedic and doesn't read to badly. It could do with some pruning BUT it seems that editors have a blurred view of what is notable or not. Ie/ the critism section (not to mention the corporation status) are treated somewhat as a sacred cow rather than having the article holistically examined. My (late) take on all this, is that editors are principally offended with Curtis's taking it on himself to redo the article. Personally I think he has done an alright job....but again, it could do with some pruning (IMHO) however as the article stands it gives an excellent account of what, who, where and when the organisation is. So what if info is only a link away, people keep crowing for "facts" as it is an "encylopedia". And you cannot deny that they are now in there. Although I must admit, the copyvio and plagarism attacks were pretty good to overcome notability objections :-P Shot info 11:06, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Shot_info, could you pls give us a dif as to which recent version of the article you consider most encyclopedic?--I'clast 12:39, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Copyright concerns

(I've moved this from the "Alleged Copyright Violation" section because it appears from Seejyb's post that this is an ongoing concern. Sarah 12:59, 2 January 2007 (UTC))

Non-commercial use is not acceptable and not compatible with Wikipedia licensing because Wikipedia articles can be used commercially. We cannot comply with "non-commercial" conditional use. The licensing needs to be public domain or GFDL. Sarah 02:04, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

I guess this makes two reasons that these edits should not be included here. Thanks for clarifying.Jance 02:48, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
As it stands, the NCAHF website very clearly states, "All articles on this Web site except government reports are copyrighted". If the copyright holder wants to release this material for us to use, he/she needs to send an email from an address associated with the site the material has been copied from to permissions@wikimedia.org, stating that they give permission for the material to be used under the GFDL and that they understand that this means it may be freely copied, redistributed, edited and used commercially outside of Wikipedia. Or they need to place a note on the website stating that they agree to the material being used under the GFDL licence. An anon editing from an IP and signing as "Barrett" is simply not sufficient for permission. You may be able to quote small excerpts under fair use, but only under this guideline: "Under fair use guideline, brief selections of copyrighted text may be used, but only with full attribution and only when the purpose is to comment on or criticize the text quoted." Sarah 13:32, 2 January 2007 (UTC)
Thank you, Sarah. Does Curtis have anymore objections?--Hughgr 00:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
No, that clearly allows me to quote portions of the individual documents in question in order to illustrate the positions of NCAHF with regard the the various issues on which they take positions. So now that we've gotten past this copyvio red-herring, can we FINALLY move on? --Curtis Bledsoe 03:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Yes, thanks, Sarah. Hopefully when the protection lifts, there will be no reversion problems. The Wikipedia policy makes sense.. And, I am heartened that most editors are willing to work together to build consensus. Jance 04:12, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
It's not resolved. Curtis ignores "brief" and "...only when the purpose is to comment on or criticize the text quoted." Illustrating NCAHF's position could equally be met by paraphrasing. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 04:34, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think it's resolved either. Curtis' participation in this "Protected" discussion completely ignores the group consensus and numerous discussions of why information absolutely must be abridged in an encyclopedia article. Perhaps I'm misreading his perspective? --Ronz 04:44, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
What can we do to find resolution? I seem only to antagonize Curtis, since I had first suggested the summary. Therefore, I thought it more productive to let others talk with him. I have a much better feeling about Wikipedia, after seeing people like Ronz, and I'cast, Arthur, and others focus on a content issue and come to agreement. Sarah has helped clairfy the Copyright policy, and most agree that more is not better. I guess the next step is to see if we can agree on a non-protected article. Consensus does not require 100% agreement. What to do you think we do from here?Jance 06:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Ask the admins to remove protection or at least update the "Positions" section, and if necessary, let the admins make the first move to solve Curtis' "hearing problem".--I'clast 07:03, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
Would someone else like to do this (this might be better).Jance 19:34, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I've asked him on his talk page,diff no answer yet but its only been a couple of days...I don't know how long we should wait. Or should we just request that the page get unlocked and see if he disrupts it again?--Hughgr 20:06, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
I don't think he is ever going to concede. We might as well request the page be unlocked, and then if he reverts it, we can call in an admin. I don't know what else to do, do you? Jance 20:20, 5 January 2007 (UTC)
Done, let the editing continue. :) --Hughgr 00:56, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Could someone add

the referrence to the herbal suppliments para. I'clast has it above. Thanks! I really should learn one of these days....... :)--Hughgr 01:10, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

And thanks, Hughgr. Unfortunately I know how to do it, but I dont know what website s//he sourced. Jance 01:11, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure whether "she" refers to MastCell or me, a "he". Anyway I have inserted the dreaded NCAHF ref, the original text for it was hidden under 1 "b" instead of the usual a. I am sure some will forgive me ;->--I'clast 14:51, 7 January 2007 (UTC)
I am sorry, l'clast! I will not make that mistake again. Clearly I wasn't thinking. And thank you!Jance 15:08, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Cannot verify: Waltzing with the 'Quackbusters' — To Whose Music?

Anyone have a more complete reference? I was assuming it's a book by the page number, but maybe it's an essay inside a book? --Ronz 16:40, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

My bad. I left a vital part out of the reference... the magazine name from where it was taken - The Townsend Letter. There was an "Op. Cit." in the reference from which I was drawing it and it threw me off. Levine2112 18:01, 11 January 2007 (UTC)
Indexed here. Waltzing...#117, p. 339--I'clast 22:45, 11 January 2007 (UTC)