Talk:The Independent

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I've never heard of it called the Indie...always thought its nickname was "the Indy" e.g.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,,1813226,00.html

http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/article/200406/indys_extra_big_read_takes_on_guardians_diminished_g2



It is a liberal and European newspaper.

We are all aware that the Indie is a liberal newspaper (although the exact defintion of a liberal is unknown) but a 'European newspaper'? Strictly speaking, all British newspapers are European, as the UK is a European country. Do you mean pro-Europe as in pro-EU? In which case, the Indie is also pro-human-rights, anti-fox-hunting, etc, so why mention this in particular? Or do you mean that is published in mainland Europe?

The readership is predominantly southern, based in and around London.

IS there any concrete evidence for this? Are most of its readership from the South of England or Londoners? Please cite sources. -- Axon Wed Jul 16 15:31:38 GMTDT 2003

I agree I've removed the offending items. Be bold. Mintguy 14:59 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I moved this from The Independent newspaper to The Independent, firstly because the latter is the title, and secondly because there is no necessity for "newspaper".


"Brendan Hopkins headed Independent News while Andrew Marr and Rosie Boycott were made editors of both the broadsheet publications (the other being the Belfast Telegraph)"

I have changed the above as it is incorrect. Marr was made edtior of the Independent, Boycott was made editor of the Independent on Sunday. The Belfast Telegraph though now owned by INM (Ireland) was at the time owned by Trinity Newspapers which merged with Mirror Group Newspapers to form Trinity Mirror. jason@eastbelfast.com

Contents

[edit] Anti-Israel

I have removed the general classification of an Independent reader as "anti-Israel", as although the paper frequently objects to many aspects of Israeli policy in the conflict in that area, referring to readers as "anti-Israel" itself is both an over simplification and inaccurate since few would object to the existence of the state of Israel or condemn every aspect of the country.

[edit] Robert Fisk

Arguably Robert Fisk is the best known syndicated controversial journalist to feature in The Independent

Attempted to improve this paragraph, suspect it is still not quite right. AndrewMcQ 20:37, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

I know there has been a lot of discussion about the issue of the papers political views, but i really feel that the independent is a left wing newspaper, indeed i would go as far to say that it is a left wing version of the daily mail. By this what i mean is that, like the mail, it will select news stories that reflect its political views. There is nothing wrong with this, but how often does the paper effectively devote a front page to a comment? For me this is the most left wing of british newspapers, not that that makes it left wing on the grand scale of things.


[edit] Left-wing?

The info box says the Independent is left-wing. The info box for The Guardian describes it as left of centre. Is the Indie to the left of the Guardian? I think traditionally the Guardian is seen as the most left wing of the broadsheets but has it moved to the centre right like the Labour Party? I don't think it's correct currently but I'm not sure what to change them to. Secretlondon 11:12, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

AFAIK they're about the same, except the Gruniad has socialist leanings, the Indie LibDem leanings. The Indie may be slightly more to the left, but I don't think it's left-wing like the Morning Star. Dunc|☺ 19:31, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

But that would mean that socialism is to the right of the Lib Dems.. The Graun is more Labour, the Indie more Lib Dem. I'm going to change this to left of centre, the same as the Graun. Secretlondon 11:08, 7 August 2005 (UTC)

To my mind, (speaking as a member of the LibDems) the LibDems are a more radical party, whereas labour is a far more conservative (small "c" obviously) party. that is where the key differences are between them. Also on some issues the LibDems are to the traditional left of Labour (certainly new labour) on others to the right. I think Left and Right are not very accurate terms unless you define them on each use - which makes them rather redundant eg "On the issue of civil liberties, the lib dems are to the left of Labour (where left wing is committed to protect them)" Keep them as both the same and it will probably be alright MrWeeble 19:31, 9 August 2005 (UTC)
I agree that the Indie is more Lib Dem, but disagree that that constitutes being "centre left". I would call it "centre" at least in the British political spectrum, but perhaps it would be better to call it "liberal". —Ashley Y 09:02, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
Calling The Independent a liberal newspaper won't work since the term is too large, and even then, if you read The Independent over a long period, it is very possible to see a predominant centre-left stance throughout. It should be classed as a Centre / Centre-left newspaper then, but definitely not a liberal one.--A.szczep 08:24, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
Can I please propose a minimal revisal to the current labelling of "centre left"...? It is obvious that the Indy is far more akin to the Guardian's stance in comparison to The Murdoch Times and The Torygraph, although I am not sure that it would be entirely accurate to have them identically labelled. I agree that "liberal" seems a bit too nondescript for something needing to pin-point some sort of indication such as political stance, in addition to the possibility of inducing (misconstrued) connotations of allegiance to the Lib Dems. However I personally feel that there really ought to be some sort of distinction between the Indy and Guardian's stances, indeed to label the Indy the same as the Guardian seems to understate the latter's traditional leaning to the left. Having intermittently switched between the two papers at similar times throughout the summer, I believe this is still the case with the Guardian and it still differs from the Indy, even if this is slight.
I would therefore like to ask fellow debaters to consider a move, if not to "central" as it may seem overly close to the right, then at least to "broadly central" as an alternative to "liberal" (which is what I would interpret the latter as anyway), thus also indicating occasional erring to the left that is evident on certain issues, whilst not maintaining as consistent a left-leaning stance as the Guardian? 86.135.59.63 21:29, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
No way is it 'centre' these days. It might have been something like that once but these days it's to the left of The Guardian. Bombot 12:48, 23 February 2007 (UTC)
I agree that 'centre left' is probably the best designation - that seems to be the consensus so I've made the modification. --163.1.176.254 15:51, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
Somehow the page got changed to left-wing again. I've pointed out in the articles edit page to consult the talk, it would be best to read the "Liberal?" section too before editing. Would anybody agree that the Independent on Sunday could do with an alternative political allegiance? Whenever I read the Sunday edition it seems to be a left-wing paper, unlike it's more central daily paper. Even during the general election the daily Indie advocated a hung parliament, whilst the Sindie advocated a small Labour victory. Saiyanora 13:47, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lib Dem support?

"It supports the Liberal Democrat party in Britain, which is in favour of.." - I wasn't aware the Indie or Sindie had come out in support of any party, although I am only an occasional reader to be fair. Is this a mistatement, or have I missed something? Can someone provide a citation? Badgerpatrol 01:21, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

The Independent recently has not directly shown support of any party. During the last General Election the Indie stated it favoured a 'hung parliament'. Although, it does show indirect Lib Dem support, by raising, and agreeing, on similar points. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Saiyanora (talk • contribs) 17:32, 7 April 2006 (UTC)
I believe the whole point of the paper (right down to it's name) is that it is independent of any political party, and a similar position in the political spectrum to the liberal democrats on many issues does not constitute support.137.138.46.155 15:27, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] New Logo?

Can anyone explain the reason for the red logo with the eagle in parentheses? It's on the front page as of this post. Its location is http://www.independent.co.uk/template/ver/gfx//RED_INDY_LOGO.gif --Wasabe3543 02:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, today Bono is a guest editor with half the proceeds going to Product Red MrWeeble Talk Brit tv 18:03, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Liberal?

I've just been browsing newspaper articles checking out political allignments. All of them have variations of right and left except this one which just has 'liberal'- eh? Shouldn't that be explained upon somewhat? Liberal hardly matters, liberal can be far right or far left or anywhere in between...--Josquius 15:03, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

They're liberal in the UK (original?) sense: free speech, civil rights, etc. A position on the left-right spectrum wouldn't communicate much information. EdC 04:40, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
In my opinion it would be better defined as a Centre / Centre-left newspaper, since in essence, that's what it is. You cannot call it liberal, since in the original British term liberal, The Independent doesn't qualify -- however I can see where The Independent can be classified if you use the American meaning, which basically means centre / centre-left.--A.szczep 08:27, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
I really don't think you could call the Independent a centre/centre-left newspaper: it's a liberal newspaper. The whole left/right-wing dichotomy doesn't work very well when it comes to liberalism; sometimes the Indy epouses "left-wing" values such as international law, the environment, fairer taxation, human rights... other times it seems more "right-wing" when it talks about privatisation of the Post Office or NHS. I think liberal is a more accurate description. User:Chid12 11:14, 16 August 2006.

I have changed "liberal" to "left-wing" in the infobox because it was next to "Political allegiance", and I'm sure most Britons on here would agree that in Britain, the word liberal is not generally used in a political sense - it is normally only used in the social sense, ie, tolerant of other people's different behaviours and beliefs.

If anyone disagrees with the change, then could you please tell me what your exact British political definition of the word liberal is, because even if you use it in the British political sense, I think that it basically means centrist (with my point being that the Indy is left-wing). Whether the Lib Dems are currently in the centre or are centre-left, I believe that in the past, the old Liberal party were in the centre, in between the Conservatives on the Right and Labour on the Left. :-) Ojcookies 19:11, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Just because most Britons are more used to the terms "left-wing" and "right-wing" doesn't mean that the Independent falls into one of those categories. At the moment, the Lib Dems do seem to be a "centre-left" party; but they're also the only major party to talk about cutting taxes, privatising the Post Office, and plenty of the Orange Bookers would like to see the NHS part-privatised as well. Those are certainly not left-wing policies. The Independent's editorials broadly follow the Lib Dems' (though not without exception) and to call them a left-wing newspaper is oversimplifying the issue. Though the term "liberal" is often associated with being "left-wing" in the UK, this is an oversimplification which I think wikipedia is beyond. I think the authoritarian/libertarian axis is becoming more and more familar, and so political ideologies such as "liberalism" and "libertarianism" are becoming more and more recognisable and understood. I think using the term liberal is more accurate than left-wing and I think the editorials of the Indy confirm this. User:Chid12 02:29 28 August 2006

Hi Chid12! Firstly, don't worry, I'm not going to change this again, but I just wanted to give a couple more thoughts on the subject.
I don't actually read The Independent regularly, so when I said before that the Indy is left-wing, I was basing that on their front pages (anti-Bush, pro-immigrants, drugs comparison etc). But if their editorials talk about cutting taxes and privatising the Post Office, then that balances things out, and does put them roughly in the Centre. In Britain, I believe that the political definition for liberal does roughly mean centrist. So that's alright in a sense, but I still think that it's a bit fuzzy - as I said before, in Britain, most people don't use the word liberal in its political meaning, and in America, it is clearly used to mean left-wing, so I have two alternatives for you:
(a) Like The Daily Telegraph whose political allegiance is Conservative, and The Daily Mirror's which is Labour, how about putting the political allegiance as the party for which the paper most supports, so for The Independent as Liberal Democrat?
(b) Or, how about putting it as Liberalism, as that's more precise, it's where Liberal redirects anyway, and it would be clear for any Americans looking at it that it wasn't purely left-wing? Ojcookies 20:48, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

What happened to the "radical centre" label? The Independent doesn't have any political stance per se ... If the Independent is left wing, we need a new label left of left for the Guardian. Or are "we" using left for non sensationalism or "high brow" and right for straight out sensationalism? Strange systems of measurement here ... --Tene 19:12, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Andrew Marr's redesign

It might be nice to point out that although the 1996 redesign was short lived, the only differnce between it and the 2006 paper is the size. Andrew Marr might have got it wrong, or perhaps was just a decade too early. Djarra 17:15, 15 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Graphic style

To my mind one of the most distinctive aspects of The Independent has been its approach to the use of illustrations. From the early days its photography was head and shoulders above the other UK newspapers, and more recently it's tried bizarre devices like front page headlines containing pictures instead of words. I feel this ought to be mentioned, but I don't think I'm able to do it justice. Any takers? --Stewart Robertson 12:21, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Can someone please check these changes?

Could someone please check these changes?

I've been cleaning up after this IP a bit tonight, and the changes look POV to me, but the whole section they're in looks like it could do with some references. Could someone please step up to the plate and look after it? Chovain 12:21, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Although the editor does have a point - the Independent quite often features editorials on the front page, I don't think the comments referring to Saddam and Hezbullah are justified - especially given the recent headlines condeming Israeli action in Lebanon. I have also removed the line about the paper seeing itself as an edicated tabloid as this is a bit suspect - Both the Times and the Independent are essentially of a broadsheet style in a tabloid size format and as such the title is misleading. michaelCurtis talk+ contributions 21:42, 2 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree the point about editorials on the front page is a good one. It's a very distinctive feature of the paper.--Stewart Robertson 10:16, 3 August 2006 (UTC)

Just edited the passage for style - hopefully it reads a bit more smoothly now Avaya1 17:30, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it does.Stewart Robertson 10:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Edits by User:Keith-264

I reverted a single, wide-ranging edit by User:Keith-264 which included stylistic, tonal and factual alterations. Some of the changes I agreed with; some I didn't; but making the changes as a single edit gave me no opportunity to review them individually. Also, the edit was incorrectly marked minor and lacked a summary. (Keith-264 is a new editor, so these things can be forgived.) EdC 21:00, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Out-of-date figures

"The paper is currently losing around £5 million a year, but as of March 2004, projects a return to profit by 2005."

Does anyone have any more recent figures? Thanks. Wozocoxonoy 17:02, 28 September 2006 (GMT)

[edit] Merge Proposal

The Independent On Sunday article is a copy and paste job from here (with a few minor changes). There is little point duplicating content, thus I propose a merge. If there is no consensus for this, then two redirects, The Independent on Sunday and Independent on Sunday, should resolve there instead of here. I'll give it a few days then, be bold. Rockpocket 02:46, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A question

As there is a fixed policy on Wikipedia talk:WikiProject The Beatles/Policy saying that the Beatles has to be written with a lowercase 't', I wonder what your thoughts are about using that policy for this page, and if you would agree or disagree. I thank you. andreasegde 16:34, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] A very pedantic query

I rearranged the order of some of the contributors to maintain alphabetical order and placed Andreas Whittam Smith according to his last name. However, I was wondering whether he should in fact be placed according to 'Whittam' as this seems to be an unhyphenated double-barrelled name, rather than Whittam being a middle name. I apologise for my pedantry.

SteveRamone 03:38, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Independent Traveller image

It's a dreadful picture and I'd question the need for it in any case. At least replace it with a better quality picture. SteveRamone 17:18, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Website

For me, the Website of the newspaper "The Independent" is accessible only with an access code. If this is the typical behavior, maybe there should not be the link, or at least a disclaimer? -- Burkhard.Plache (talk) 18:28, 16 January 2008 (UTC)