Talk:The Fool (Tarot card)
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I removed the "Examples" section since it was entirely Original Research which Wikipedia does not allow. I left the "mythopoeteic interpretation" section because that may have come from a reputable source but it seems to be something based on personal interpretation like the "Examples" section. - DNewhall
The interpretation sections of all cards should be rewritten. Intrepretation is always someone 's interpretation, and the text should reflect this fact. One should not write Fool is the one that takes the fateful step into a new world but one should write According to N.N., fool is the one that takes... or There is a consensus among most card readers that fool is the one that takes... Authorities sometimes disagree with each other on card interpretations, and the reader should be told of the status of the interpretation. Attributing interpretations to some authorities without mentioning the authorities by name is simply dishonest.
If one attributes the interpretations to schools of thought such as kabbalistic or mythopoetic, then there should be pages describing those schools (doctrine, prevalence and significant people of the school.) Punainen Nörtti
Why use the illustration from Marseille Tarots and not one that match the description, like Rider-Waite?
I agree with who says the mythopoetic is too personal and subjective, and I think in this case we should better choose the more "universal" aspects of the card and not try to attach that much to the opinions of authorities about interpretation neither the personal comparisons. There are things that are consensus, for example, the fool must never be putten as a repressed person...but a lightfull one...Dont you think it? I´ve written some keywords on the description and mixed the "mythopoetic" with interpretation topic, after turning the mythopoetic more "impersonal" and more as a posible interpretation... not as the obrigatory right one. - Don Leon Cavalero
- Yes, consensus interpretation should be given whenever possible, but there are real disagreements that the reader of the articles should be made aware of. For example the standard way to see the devil as an oppressor and a master of lies versus the Crowley interpretation of the devil as a liberating life force. The fool seems to be unproblematic without such contradictory interpretations, though.Punainen Nörtti 18:09, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
[edit] Unverifiable and unbalanced content
The article is just personal opinions from occult enthusiasts about the nature and meaning of a particular tarot card. No peer reviewed books or journal articles are cited. No references or footnotes are given. When a new statement is added, the source needs to be cited, and the source needs to be verifiable, and reliable.
The card in question has a history of over 500 years in European card games in which it is used as powerful wild trump card, to which no points are given in the game, or excuses the player from following suit (see Tarocchi). It is also no as the Excuse, L'excuse, etc. The article is unbalanced in that it only features the recent uses of the card for divination. This makes the article biased due to its recentism. Since the article ignores use of the card for game play in Europe and other parts of the world, it offers an anglo-american perspective that raises NPOV issues. There are academic sources and sources from international organizations discussing the history and evolution of the Fool card as well as its use in games. These need to be utilized. - Parsa 05:53, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
- is it really necessary to add this remark (with ever-so-slight modifications) to every major arcana article?
- To the anonymous commentator above, I'd say the answer is yes. I've no particular issue with those who believe that you can tell the future from a deck of playing cards designed for use in a game that very few people now know the rules for. To each his own. But as others on this page have indicated, even now I see an article almost entirely composed of information that can't be verified, hasn't been referenced, and is completely subjective. In divination, a Tarot card doesn't have a specific meaning; it depends entirely on what the reader sees in it. Therefore I'm of the view that the divination aspect of Tarot is one that should be touched on lightly, since there isn't all that much that can definitively be said about it: each occult enthusiast will have his or her own 'true interpretation', but that doesn't help an encyclopaedia. - Shrivenzale 09:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
- Actually, the comment really isn't extremely helpful, and I plan to go through and remove tags that seem to have been placed on many tarot card articles based solely on this point of view. Most of the articles on the cards do seem to cite sources, and frequently discuss them in text.
But the claim that Waite and other sources are unreliable because they are occultists interested in divination or mysticism strikes me as an example of positivist bias. There is an extensive literature on Tarot cards and their use in occultism or for divination. There moreover is broad consensus within that literature about how the cards are interpreted, and their significance in Tarot reading. Waite is one of the key authors in this tradition, at least within the English speaking world. To simply brush off this material as "unreliable" or mere "personal opinions" from "occult enthusiasts" is quite wrong-headed.
I'd like to go through and add a bit of history to these articles, and discuss the meanings given by Etteilla, Mathers, Waite, and other significant writers in the development of the traditions. By all means, expand this article with information about the card's significance in tarot games. But I do plan to remove "unreferenced" tags and the like from claims that do in fact have obvious references, that seem to have been added only because they reference writers interested in divination. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 21:10, 8 April 2008 (UTC)
- Actually, the comment really isn't extremely helpful, and I plan to go through and remove tags that seem to have been placed on many tarot card articles based solely on this point of view. Most of the articles on the cards do seem to cite sources, and frequently discuss them in text.
- To the anonymous commentator above, I'd say the answer is yes. I've no particular issue with those who believe that you can tell the future from a deck of playing cards designed for use in a game that very few people now know the rules for. To each his own. But as others on this page have indicated, even now I see an article almost entirely composed of information that can't be verified, hasn't been referenced, and is completely subjective. In divination, a Tarot card doesn't have a specific meaning; it depends entirely on what the reader sees in it. Therefore I'm of the view that the divination aspect of Tarot is one that should be touched on lightly, since there isn't all that much that can definitively be said about it: each occult enthusiast will have his or her own 'true interpretation', but that doesn't help an encyclopaedia. - Shrivenzale 09:58, 6 March 2007 (UTC)
I have edited the Description of the Fool as "bundle" was written as "bindle" ... and to give a more generic description of the card. Polgara (sorry, I didn't sign in) 167.30.48.43 04:42, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
