Talk:The Five Doctors

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[edit] Credit for Terry Nation?

Why does Douglas Adams get a writer's credit here for Shada, but Terry Nation doesn't get one for the excerpt from Flashpoint used at the beginning? Angmering 16:33, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

You haven't added it yet :P --TimPope 18:45, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

True! But I thought I'd ask in case there was a specific reason why it had been decided this was the case. As it's probably just an oversight I shall add it now. :-) Angmering 19:13, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Flavia

Flavia's history (and the history of Gallifrey's Presidency) after this story is complicated and convoluted, and probably doesn't need to be detailed in this article. Short version: in Happy Endings by Paul Cornell, Flavia was found drunk in charge of the Sash of Rassilon and removed from office; Romana became President. However, The Eight Doctors ignores this (as it ignores most of the developments of the NAs) and has Flavia in charge again. And The Apocalypse Element has Romana's presidency interrupted by a 20-year imprisonment by the Daleks, during which her (male) predecessor served as Acting President. It's a right mess. I found a page full of elaborate theories about how to reconcile the events in Eight Doctors with the NAs and the audios, but I'm not sure it's really possible or even worth the effort. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 21:04, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Time Lords can get drunk, too? With alcohol? And yet they don't sweat? They are 'marvellous, aren't they??!!!!! ;) NP Chilla 21:20, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

How can you forget the Doctor's reminiscences of boozing it up with Azmael? (Oh, right — you can forget it because it's in The Twin Dilemma, which most people who've seen would give good money to erase from their memories.) Right, let's leave that out — how can you forget the Doctor's reminiscences of boozing it up with David Lloyd George? (That's better.) —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 05:08, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A Dalek story

This story featured a Dalek, and is therefore a Dalek story. It might not have been an army of Daleks, but what defines a "Dalek story"? If you go by what's driving the plot, it isn't really a Cyberman story either. The Dalek menaced the Doctor and Susan - by denying it as a Dalek story, you deny anyone looking at the infobox any chance of discovering this. Hence, I have reverted the last change. Stephenb (Talk) 08:43, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

You might as well include The Space Museum or their appearances in flashbacks in Logopolis, then. It's counterproductive to have discussions in both places: let's talk about whether it actually even belongs in the template at all before. I would like others to provide their thoughts on this at Template talk:Dalek Stories. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 09:03, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Huh?

What does "The Five Doctors marks the end of a string of linked serials that began with The Leisure Hive." mean?

From The Leisure Hive until The Five Doctors, the serials all immediately followed one after another with no apparent "gaps" between the stories. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 13:23, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

Ah, silly me, I was thinking of Leela being after Romana, otherwise I would have realised. Out of curiosity, do you know what is that tells you there's a gap before The Leisure Hive and after The Five Doctors? Is it just a mention of an off-screen adventure?

No, it's just that The Leisure Hive begins with the Doctor and Romana on a beach, while the one just prior, The Horns of Nimon ended with them in the TARDIS. So some time has passed, even if it's not much. K-9 is damaged severely in The Leisure Hive, and they're still trying to repair him in the next story, Meglos, so there doesn't seem to be a gap between those two stories. At the end of Meglos, Romana gets the call home from Gallifrey, which the Doctor and her discuss at the start of the next story, State of Decay, which is the start of the E-Space trilogy and so on. Essentially, every story from The Leisure Hive up to The Five Doctors has explicit links back to back. At the end of The King's Demons, the Doctor decides to take his companions to the Eye of Orion, where they are at the start of The Five Doctors. After that is Warriors of the Deep, where it just starts with them in the TARDIS, with no indication as to how long it has been since the end of The Five Doctors, so there's conceivably another gap, even if just a small one. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 17:34, 25 June 2006 (UTC)

I know that it has been a year, but I quite recently read this article for the first time, and only just now checked this talk page. How do you eliminate the potential for a gap between Seasons 19 (Time Flight) and 20 (Arc of Infinity)? The Discontinuity Guide authors allowed that as a possible place for much of the time between the Doctor being 750 years old (Pyramids of Mars) and 900 (the Sixth gave this figure more than once), Nyssa being an extra-terrestrial herself. Furthermore, between The Visitation and The Black Orchid, Tegan's attitude about getting to Heathrow and her new job has changed significantly, as if something has happened for her to understand that no matter how long she stays in the TARDIS, the Doctor can get her to work on time. Nyssa, admittedly, makes a statement indicating that they just caused the Great Fire of London, and since in Mawdryn Undead Tegan has an understanding of the dangers of transmat travel that the other young woman doesn't share, I suspect that there is an "untelevised adventure" between those two stories, with Nyssa being left somewhere, and when the Doctor and Tegan return, for the Trakenian no more than a few minutes--if not mere seconds--have passed, while the Aussie and the Time Lord have experienced hours if not days, during which they witnessed a transmat-related tragedy (No, I have no idea if Adric stayed with Nyssa or went in the TARDIS). Ted Watson 19:11, 22 July 2007 (UTC) (Updated--Ted Watson 20:21, 6 August 2007 (UTC))

• I'd never heard the interval between Arc of Infinity and Time-Flight being cited as the place for the "big gap", though I believe the Big Finish audio adventures featuring the Fifth Doctor and Nyssa do take place here. The more logical gap is the one between Horns of Nimon and Leisure Hive (or Shada and Leisure Hive, if you want to include the cancelled serial) during which he travels with a fellow Time Lord and a robot dog. Tom Baker does appear noticably older at the start of Leisure Hive, and Lalla Ward also looks more mature, and the Doctor even has a modified look (goodbye colored scarf) - so centuries could have passed. 68.146.41.232 17:02, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

In The Discontinuity Guide, specifically the sidebar article "The Doctor's Age" within the entry for Pyramids of Mars, the Arc/Time-Flight gap is put forth as A possible place for much of the century and a half or so the Doctor ages between Pyramids (750 years) and his 6th incarnation (900). The authors indicate a preference for your suggestion, but contradict it with statements right there about Romana's age in her first appearance, The Ribos Operation (140), and Leisure Hive (150), which does lead into Meglos which in turn leads into the E-Space Trilogy, her swan song. So it can't have happened in her time with the Doctor at all. Ted Watson 21:12, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Canon?

The New Doctor Who Season 2 story 'School Reunion' seems to place the canonicity of this story in some doubt, as in that story it is very explicitly said that Sarah-Jane Smith has not seen the Doctor since the events of 'The Hand of Fear' and not 'The Five Doctors'. The story non-canon would also be helpful in erasing the continuity errors inherent within it (the Third Doctor recognising the Fourth and so on). Worth mentioning in the article or perhaps best held off until RTD and the New Who producers comment explicitly on the issue?--Werthead 23:11, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

It's mentioned in the School Reunion article itself. I think that, given the staggered broadcast schedule of the new series in various countries, it's probably better to avoid spoilers referring from the old series to the new one if possible, but leave the notations for the later story's article. --khaosworks (talk • contribs) 00:59, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Canonicity's not the issue; it's continuity that might be up for debate. I think the implication is pretty clear in the episode, though. They parted in Hand of Fear, and haven't had any meaningful interaction since. Did the Fifth Doctor and Sarah Jane converse, in this story? I don't recall so, offhand. Were they even introduced? Even if they had some contact, I think the Doctor had other priorities at the time. Hand of Fear was still goodbye, for all practical purposes.--Aderack 10:55, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Rewatch The Five Doctors when you get a chance. The Fifth doctor and Sarah Jane do meet, albeit breifly, in the Tomb of Rassilon. Sarah shakes hands with Tegan and they, and the Brigadeir, have a conversation about the travails of travelling with The Doctor. The canonicity conundrum set up by School Reunion is one of those things that will be debated among fans forever (unless Russell T Davies addresses it in the new Sarah Jane series). The last time I watched it I was struck by the "I thought you were dead" line of SJ's. There wasn;\'t any event in The Hand of Fear that seemed to fit this reaction of Sarah's. It led me to surmise that there might have been one further unseen adventure where the Fourth Doctor and SJ were reunited in a much more dangerous endeavour. Yes the South Croyden is Aberdeen comes up in this scenario but I cou;d just see the "teeth and curls" Doctor saying "This time I AM dropping you off in SC" and SJ then having to say "He blew it AGAIN! and farther away this tine too". But, of course, this is just my attempt to fit things together and it will be very unsatisfying to most. However, it is more satisfying to me than trying to say that the events of the 20th Anniversary (and wildly anticipated by the fans at the time) special never occurred. I hope you get to rewatch The Five Doctors soon and cheers. MarnetteD | Talk 16:28, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Of course, a simpler explanation is that Sarah thought she was having an adventure with the Third Doctor and all his previous incarnations (provided that she didn't know that he was, in fact, the third). DonQuixote 19:02, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

The best explanation is that Sarah did not realisise that the 5th doctor is a future vertion of her (fourth) doctor. The fourth doctor does not appear, and her first conversation with the third doctor shows she is confused as to why she is with the third Doctor in the first place. The "i thought you had died" suggests she expected the fourth vertion to come back for her, or expected one of the other vertions she met to come for her after this adventure.

StuartDD 15:13, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

At the end, when they are all saying their goodbyes, it is quite clear that SJ doesn't understand that the Fifth Doctor is indeed the same Doctor as the one she saw "change" into "teeth and curls." She says "Nice to meet you" or something to that effect to Fifth, and the Third replies to it, "Nice to meet you, too.". She is surprised by this, and Third says he'll explain later. I don't know if that helps the problem at hand, but I must say that I have no memory of this "thought you had died/were dead" line, which didn't come up here until the fourth posting. Ted Watson 18:32, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] VHS releases

An anonymous IP kept putting in that the first VHS release of this episode was edited by two minutes. The source that they provided was an eBay description. I have found no other website for the show or any resouce book (and I have several in my collection) that verifies this. Until a detailed description of what 2 minutes were missing I have removed the note because a) the eBay link no longer works and b) the description did not detail any missing scenes. The 2 min could simply be watching the time tracker on the two versions and noting that release two had two extra minutes that read on the clock. Thus, release two might have had longer leader info and/or BBC ads, which they started to add to tapes and DVD's in the late 90's. If anyone can detail what two minutes were missing than this should be noted on re-entering. MarnetteD | Talk 00:00, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Bessie

I addeed that Bessie was apparantly destoryed here but appears in Robot which was removed because

"rmv fancruft as this story takes place after Robot this is note a notable fact - Bessie shows up again in Battlefield"

I am aware of the fact that this is after Robot, but it it is the third Doctor driving the car when it is destroyed and Robot is a fourth Doctor story, so if Bessie was destroyed in the third Doctor's time how could it apear in the fourth Doctor episode? Hence the reason I put it is the continuity section - it is an error. StuartDD 12:23, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

The edit is speculation based on your interpretation of events. Other interpretations include the fact that there is no evidence that Bessie was destroyed permanently, rather, she was disabled and could have been repaired and returned to Earth by the Time Lords or the Doctor.

Continuity errors are great stuff for blogs or fansites, but, by their very nature are original research. This is an encyclopedia and edits such as this have to either be put into context and allow for multiple interpretations, or they require citations and sources to justify their inclusion. MarnetteD | Talk 12:46, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] a dud story???

really shouldnt the other doctors know what the proverb means if the 1st doctor works it out? i may have worked it out differently but to most people it does seem right --Dwrules 17:48, 24 May 2007 (UTC)

Once you get some years on you, you will realize that if you met your younger self and said, "There's some things that you think you understand that you don't," your younger self would reply, "Well, what do you know?" Something like that is what's being played out in the story's conclusion. I realize that this isn't an exact analogy, but it should be close enough. That and the trick of all the Doctor's fixing the problem at once had been used already in The Three Doctors, so Dicks had one particular Doctor solve it. Proteus71 17:44, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Outside References

Should it be noted that the Brigadier has an assistent named "Kryten" in this one? A Red Dwarf reference? 207.202.227.125 06:18, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

No. How could this possibly be a Red Dwarf ref. This episode was made and aired in 1983. RD did not start airing until 88. The spelling is also totally different. Please reserve fancruft questions like this for non encyclopedic websites.MarnetteD | Talk 13:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Doctor Who Confidential

Can someone please write a bit about the behind the scenes footage that was shown in the last episode of Doctor Who Confidential? Apparently its never been seen before. 86.140.188.246 08:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Vengeance?

The DVD release section states: "The story was the first to be re-edited by Vengeance as an Enhanced Special Edition, and was made available on 25 January 2008."

Can someone please explain what Vengeance is/what this means?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by HowardBerry (talk • contribs) 14:55, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't know what it means either. Added a citation needed tag, because I can't find anything about it google. DonQuixote (talk) 20:07, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

The editing comment says "see CIA forum for details". No idea as to what this is either! Possibly referring to a fan board? Celestial Intervention Agency...?! Howie ☎ 01:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I am Vengeance. The Enhanced Special Edition is a version of the story that takes the special edition as a master and edits several of the more effective special effects back into the story from the Original Edition. It also adds approximatly five fan made special effects, and finally, edits footage from four different episodes to give Tom Baker a FULL ROLE IN THE STORY! For more information on this edition, please see: http://forum.syc0somatic.com/viewtopic.php?t=366 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.254.200.220 (talk) 14:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, well for the time being - as you have no website, and no product to show - I don't think you can state that this has been "made available". Reading your forum post, it actually gives no real information about this release at all. It seems that this info will have to be removed until some actual evidence this exists is shown. Check out WP:SOAP and WP:V for more on why this is currently non-encyclopaedic. It sounds like a very promising project, but until it is available and verifiable, it doesn't belong on Wikipedia. Howie ☎ 18:00, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 25th Anniversary Edition

The article says this was released on March 3, 2008. I've found references to the Region 2 DVD set at Amazon.co.uk, but can't find any listings at any North American vendors. Does anyone know the current plans/release date for a Region 1 version? Skyraider (talk) 00:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)