Talk:The Fall (band)/Proposed move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was Anthony Appleyard's decision at the bottom of this discussion.

Article title

If the band is named after the novel, shouldn't the novel be at The Fall and the band at The Fall (band)? RickK 20:57, Nov 6, 2004 (UTC)

The Gaurdina had an article on the Fall/Mark E Smith at their website on Jan 15 which linked to The fall article on Wiki, hence I've reciprocated the link! [1]

quercus robur 15:02, 16 Jan 2005 (UTC)

The Fall (band) are much more popular than the book - I guess a large majority of people will be searching for the band The Fall rather than the book. So I propose we move The Fall to The Fall (Camus novel) (or similar) and The Fall (band) to The Fall – whichever came first is not relevant. SaltyWater 22:17, 15 April 2006 (UTC)

This should be a disambiquation page because there is also a book by Garth Nix entiled the fall. Jamhaw 14:56, 6 June 2006 (UTC)jamhaw

I suggest creating The Fall (disambiguation), and linking to that page from here. The Fall band are much more popular than either book. SaltyWater 15:18, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

I was about to do that, when I noticed Fall (disambiguation), which already links to this article, Camus and the Fall of Man. --ajn (talk) 15:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

This article should be moved.
While any of the points above are more than debatable, I think it should be clear that this page, "The Fall" should most certainly point to either The Fall of Man or The Fall. My reason for thinking that "The Fall" should not point to this page in particular is that I find it unlikely this band is widely known outside of the UK; and, more than that, without any context the phrase "The Fall" is generally understood to be referring to "The Fall of Man". Wikipedia's naming convention is summed up as follows:

Generally, article naming should give priority to what the majority of English speakers would most easily recognize, with a reasonable minimum of ambiguity, while at the same time making linking to those articles easy and second nature.

Furthermore, given the choices between a fundamental theological principle of the Abrahamic religions, an important existentialist work of literature (whose author was chosen for the Nobel Prize), and an English rock band, I think the last of the three is the least obvious choice. (It might also be relevant that "Fall" brings up the entry on autumn.) --Todeswalzer | Talk 20:21, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

I'm confused. Is not the article title for the "The Fall of Man", "The Fall of Man", and not the abreviated "The Fall"? Or do you want "The Fall" to redirect to "The Fall of Man" headed by a dab for "The Fall"?

Your use of the phrase 'English rock band' is a bit glib and dismissive, I'm not particullary sure that the existentialist writing from the 50s is more 'recognisable', or, to make the same jump in logic as above, inheriently more worthy, than its UK name sake. - Coil00 21:10, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

If any article (as opposed to a disambig.) should be titled The Fall, then it's this one IMHO. The Fall of Man seems a sensible title for that article, the novel should perhaps be under La Chute as that's what Camus called it. This band is very widely known outside of the UK - see the Influence section if this is not clear, and is the only one of the three to be primarily known as "The Fall". --Michig 20:54, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

This article has only one reasonable title, that which it presently has. The others should be titled The Fall of Man (as it presently is) and La Chute (which it presently isn't; I find the automatic translation into English culturally imperialistic). Ac@osr 21:25, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

After reviewing the above arguments, I am in agreement that we can now rule out The Fall of Man, since this is more specific than the abbreviated phrase. However, I still disagree with the page about the band trumping that of Camus' novel. The latter can't simply be renamed to its original French title, La Chute, since that isn't consistent with WP's naming conventions. Furthermore, I don't want to get into a debate over the relative worth of this band's music vis-a-vis Camus' writings (despite my own opinions on the matter, which I wisely or unwisely made clear above, and for which I apologize if it sounded dismissive).

The major point of contention I see within this debate is trying to resolve which is more "well-known". Well-known to whom? One could probably argue that both are equally obscure among the general public, that is, Anglophones; in that case, how are we to decide? In such a case, it makes more sense to me that the default should be wherever the name/title was first used, namely, Camus.

A possible compromise might be to have neither article at this page, and instead rework the disambig pages (which are themselves in need of work anyway). Failing that, the positions seem fairly entrenched: a number of comments posted on the discussion page of The Fall (novel) tend to share my own opinion on the matter, in contrast to most of the comments on this page, so I'm not sure how we're to resolve the issue. Ideas? --Todeswalzer | Talk 04:32, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

This is thinly disguised cultural snobbery. A Google search on "The Fall" Camus gives this and one for "The Fall" Mark E Smith gives this. In truth neither group nor novel will be immediately known to the wider public but you could say that about nine-tenths or more of Wikipedia's contents. The group, however, clearly occupy the larger niche. Ac@osr 08:45, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

As an observation, the article on the novel is quite short. Editors would be better served expanding, rather than arguing notability here. - Coil00 09:21, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry to dredge up an old bone of contention, but I'd like to state for the record that prior to being assigned an essay on Camus' work, I'd heard of neither the novel nor the band, and om how I long for such a return to blissful ignorance.NorphTehDwarf 04:04, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

I've made a proposal to move this page to The Fall (band). As per the notice at the top of this page, please discuss at Talk:The Fall (novel). Thanks. --Todeswalzer|Talk 15:02, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

I suggest that this page be moved to The Fall (rock band), and that the disambiguation page be put in its place. SharkD 23:02, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

This has been argued over before. Look above. Bartleby 00:03, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Clearly this should be at Fall, The. I'll have a word with the appropriate people and start the ball rolling. -Ashley Pomeroy 17:51, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Closure of discussion

• I left The Fall (novel) and The Fall (about the band) where they were. The Fall has a head disambig link to Fall (disambiguation)#The Fall, which lists several things called The Fall. Anthony Appleyard 11:39, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

See Talk:The Fall (novel) for more discussion on this topic. Anthony Appleyard 10:13, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.