Talk:The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test

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I felt like I had to clarify some of the language in the "influences" section. honestly, i'm not even sure "influences" is the correct title for it. regardless, i think i edited it in such a way that it no longer reads like an 8th grade book report. no disrespect, it was just reduntant and circular. I redid the intro for clarity as well... someone needs to tackle the summary, but i dont have the energy. it's not as confused as the other sections, so it would really just be simple proofreading and editing.

Much better! Thank you very much Monkey Tennis 11:40, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

What is this? A film, a novel, a story, a what? --Menchi 08:49, Aug 21, 2003 (UTC)

Its a book. Don't know much more than that, though. - David Stewart 09:03, 21 Aug 2003 (UTC)

It's a non-fiction book, written in the "new-journalism" style by Tom Wolfe in the 1960s. It records the activities of Ken Kesey, Hunter Thompson, the Hell's Angels, and other major figures from that time, especially in relation to the use of LSD.

Kesey later compared Wolfe and Thompson as "Shit floats and cream rises. Hunter Thompson is cream." Thompson himself described Wolfe as "a crusty old fart". Wolfe's generally conservative views and distain for the hippies comes across in his book, and this is cleary what fueled Kesey's and Thompson's dislike of him.

I have read the book and didn't immediately feel Wolfe's disdain for the hippies. It seemed to me that he was very ambililant to the whole "hippie" movement in general and Ken Kesey in particular, but any thing deeper than that I didn't pick up on. 207.157.121.50 04:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

The entry would benefit from a rewrite into a more neutral point of view with some clean up some of the people mentioned (Tom Wolfe vs Thomas Wolfe). I know, I know, I should do it. Just pointing out the need so that others don't wonder if it's just them. --Zippy 02:09, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I had a go at NPOVing the intro and deleted the final thoughts, which seemed particularly POV. The summary section isn't so bad, but the influences bit doesn't seem to make much sense. It basically says: "In writing this book Tom Wolfe was obviously influenced by his life. But he didn't travel on the bus much and rarely took drugs. He did some interviews for this book." I'm not sure what to do about it. Thoughts anyone? Monkey Tennis 14:10, 11 October 2005 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] spoiler

Does one need to worry about spoliers in a work of non-fiction?Theblackgecko 20:57, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

hmm . . . good question. i dunno. there's probably a wikiproject dealing with this . . . --Heah talk 21:55, 30 December 2005 (UTC)
I cannot see how a spoiler warning would do any harm (if that is what you are asking). --Walter Siegmund (talk) 21:53, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

"I have read the book and didn't immediately feel Wolfe's disdain for the hippies. It seemed to me that he was very ambililant to the whole "hippie" movement in general and Ken Kesey in particular, but any thing deeper than that I didn't pick up on. 207.157.121.50 04:04, 11 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey""

While I have a great fondness for beginnings of the hippie movement, I can certainly empathize with Wolfe's ambivilance. There he was, a pretty straight guy, careening around the country on a bus full of people who behaved (for the times) as though they were completely insane. Although it seems somewhat acceptable now, back then it was absolute lunacy to paint a schoolbus, wire it for sound and then travel the nation with the express purpose of shocking people. Wolfe must've felt like a white-suited fish out of (LSD-tainted) water.

--Helenabucket 16:03, 25 May 2006 (UTC)helenabucket

actually, he wrote most of the book from interviews, notes, audio tapes recorded by Hunter Thompson & watching footage of the epic road movie filmed during the bus trip to NYC. he was not really "on the bus," literally or metaphorically. ZebulonNebulon 22:10, 23 October 2006 (UTC)
He seems to describe characters who are at times entirely on the bus, like Norman Hartwig and Black Maria, with the "in-looking-out" tone of one who is "on the bus". This is either a mark of his literary skill, or an indication that he was at least partly on the bus, in the metaphorical sense. It is enough for me to think we should not dismiss the idea that Wolfe the person did not empathize with the Pranksters. — Swpbtalk|edits 22:18, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] summary

Can someone please put a summary of the book back on the page? A poorly written one is better than none. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 152.13.45.8 (talk) 08:01, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

[edit] POV

I doubt whether many people would consider the Pranksters' drug-fuelled musings as "reaching personal and collective revelations", or believe that they achieved "intellectual and quasi-religious breakthroughs". Unless people object, I will probably tone down these claims in a few days. Awien 22:55, 24 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it so hard to imagine that substances which alter the way the mind works might have revelatory effects that resemble a religious experience? And who are you or I to declare what counts as a religious experience or breakthrough? The people in the book describe their experiences that way, as does Wolfe, and relating these experiences is Wolfe's primary concern, as the introduction states. That you don't think any "personal and collective revelations" were reached is irrelevant. Wolfe writes, in the Author's Note following the text, "...the events described in this book were both a group adventure and a personal exploration. Many achieved great insight on both levels." He does not describe "alleged" or "supposed" experiences, as you might have it. The "alleged" or "supposed" is in the opinion of the skeptical reader, and is not appropriate in a neutral description of the book. The introduction is NPOV as it is. — Swpbtalk|edits 22:11, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Just because Wolfe took the Pranksters' claims at face value doesn't mean that a neutral commentator has to as well. Awien 23:15, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
A revelation is just a change in perception - if someone tells you their perception has changed, you wouldn't tell them that no, they only think it has. In other words, if I honestly think I've had a revelation, then yes, I've had one, even if it's only meaningful to me. So, if you are suggesting that because the Prankster's revelations weren't universally meaningful, they weren't really revelations, then I think we are debating the meaning of a revelation. If, on the other hand, you're arguing that they were being dishonest in their accounts to Wolfe, and that they recounted changes in perception that they never really experienced, then you're going to need some pretty good sources establishing why they would do that, and discrediting decades of knowledge on the effects of LSD. So, to clarify the conversation, which idea are you suggesting? — Swpbtalk|edits 22:46, 15 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't doubt their sincerity, as my edit clearly shows. However, words like 'revelation' and 'breakthrough' imply that they were making real discoveries, whereas the fact is that what happens to people who spend all their time stoned is that they are out of touch with reality. And following up on the Pranksters, we find that both Kesey and Cassady changed their minds. Kesey "denounced the curative powers of LSD as temporary and delusional" (http://www.lib.virginia.edu/small/exhibits/sixties/kesey.html), and Cassady, before dying very young, advised Walter Cox, "Don't do what I have done" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neal_Cassady). I believe that the present phraseology is very fair. Awien 16:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
BTW, you need to look revelation up in a dictionary. Awien 16:54, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
Better still now without any "breakthroughs". Awien 16:22, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
It's again your own bias that people on drugs are necessarily "out of touch with reality". Who are you to say that your natural brain chemistry presents you with a more accurate "reality" than an altered chemistry? — Swpbtalk|edits 16:28, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
Let me just remind you that it IS the point of view Kesey himself anyway, and apparently Cassady too, came around to. Not to mention that it's what you typically (always?) hear and read from recovering addicts and alcoholics. Awien 19:35, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
The quote you threw at me from Kesey was about "curative powers", and Cassady recommended against taking LSD. How do either of those statements imply in any way that they denied having had revelatory experiences? — Swpbtalk|edits 20:08, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
They were admitting, Kesey more explicitly than Cassady, that the "revelations" they had thought they were getting from their use of LSD were not real, not useful, not going to make the world into a better place as they had hoped. When somebody tells you "Don't do what I did", they are acknowledging that they made a mistake. What they had taken for enlightenment was a delusion. Awien 23:05, 17 October 2007 (UTC)
You're doing an awful lot of interpretation to get from point A to point B, and I just don't buy it. — Swpbtalk|edits 00:11, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know, I have read the book but wonder whether you have. I also looked up 'revelation' in a dictionary (OED) - did you? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Awien (talk • contribs) 01:44, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I've done both, so there goes your argument from superior expertise. — Swpbtalk|edits 04:59, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:19, 2 January 2008 (UTC)