Talk:The Book of the New Sun

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[edit] Neologisms

This is a minor point, but I seem to remember reading somewhere that Wolfe did not actually invent any words for these books, although some were quite archaic. However, the article as it stands reads "...archaic, obscure, or even invented words..." Can anyone else comment on the accuracy of this statement? --Flyingspuds 05:30, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm afraid I can't give any examples of outright neologisms, but I can give an example of invented meanings. See "fuligin", repeatedly defined as the "color darker than black", right? But my OED does not record that meaning at all, going for a "sooty" or charcoaly color, which most definitely is not fuligin as Wolfe uses it. --Maru (talk) Contribs 16:20, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Check out "Castle of the Otter", a collection of short essays by Wolfe himself about the content of the New Sun books. One of them talks about his choice of language, and if I recall correctly he freely admits to changing the meanings of some of the more obscure words (e.g. fuligin). Bear in mind he claims to be translating from a future language, so he's trying to find approximately equivalent words from current (and past) English. - KF, Feb 2/06

.. Wolfe has noted in interviews that he has not used any invented words in the "Book of the New Sun", but there are some typos [1]

[edit] What is "quasi-Lovecraftian"?

What is "quasi-Lovecraftian"? I don't like this discription because it's obscure enough to be meaningless. Is it even true of Wolfe's setting? --Heathcliff 21:30, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I'm not too familiar with Lovecraft, but from what I know, the description is at least somewhat accurate. "Horrors of the deep" and all that. The "quasi" qualifier is important though, since I think Lovecraft deals more with mythological types of creatures, whereas Wolfe clearly builds his "monsters" in a more historical (or maybe even paleontological) way (from the perspective of the books, which are set billions of years in the future). Anyway, I agree that "quasi-Lovecraftian" is pretty obscure and (even worse) academic. — HorsePunchKid→龜 22:41, July 27, 2005 (UTC)
I think it makes Book of the new Sun sound like it's in the horror genre which it is not at all. Also, BTW I don't think Book of the New Sun is meant to be set billions of years in the future though it is deliberately obscure about when it takes place. --Heathcliff 01:02, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, there isn't too much of a horror aspect to BotNS. There are definitely a few monstrosities that are clearly intended to appear horrifying, but not in an "unspeakable horror" way; more of a "horribly unfamiliar" way, perhaps. Hard to describe. And I believe (unfortunately, after only one reading!) that it's set when the sun is literally running out of fuel (hydrogen fuel, at least), which is at least roughly billions of years in the future. There are many things he's left very unclear, but at least his description in the book gave me the impression of that order of magnitude, anyway. I need to read them again, though; Severian even tells you to toward the very end. :) — HorsePunchKid→龜 04:21, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
In Book of the New Sun it is said that a worm is inside the sun. I think this is supposed to be a reference to a small black hole consuming sun from the inside, but I don't remember if it's made clear anywhere or not. In any event, I'm pretty sure the sun is not dying of natural causes. The story is set in the far future, but there are too many traces of old myths and legends for the story to be set billions of years in the future. I'm currently in the middle of my first reread (just started Lictor again) so I'll pay special attention for anything particular about what's happening to the sun. --Heathcliff 22:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
From what you've re-read so far, would you recommend re-reading BotNS before moving on to Long Sun or Short Sun? I had been assuming all along that the Sun was simply dying naturally, so this could easily have caused me to try to fit evidence into that when it wasn't appropriate. (Sort of like how things work out with Baldanders; I've heard that on a second read-through, it's very obvious what the relationship between him and Dr. Talos is. You just miss the clues because you think you understand it.) — HorsePunchKid→龜 01:10, July 30, 2005 (UTC)
I've yet to read Long or Short, but I definately recomend that everyone who likes BOTNS re-read it at some point. It's amazing how much I missed the first time through and I suspect I'm still missing a lot of it.
As for Dr. Talos and Baldanders' relationship, like you I didn't realize it until it was revealed out right the first time. The second time through I'm not sure I've noticed that many more hints. The only two the stood out to me this time were Talos not taking a share of the money and a comment by Dorcas. But like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if I'm still missing a lot.--Heathcliff 01:31, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
It's not necessary to re-read BotNS before Long Sun and Short Sun. The connection between them is pretty tenuous: the character Typhon is really the only significant connection, and he's an equally minor character minor in both works. However, Long Sun and Short Sun are very closely related. There is definitely supposed to be a black hole inside the sun, and in Urth of the New Sun he's supposed to bring a "white fountain" to counteract it. — Wahoofive (talk) 17:29, 16 November 2005 (UTC)
Sevarian and Nessus do show up briefly in the Book of the Short Sun. There are other tie-ins which are not tenuous, however they are mostly to the first fifty pages or so of the Book of the New Sun. Toiyabe 20:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
There is another mention of the non-natural failure of the Sun, during Severian's conversation with Typhon. Typhon goes over the events that preceded the failure of his empire and mentions his scientists detected a much greater than expected decrease in the Sun's output over the course of a year. This led to crop failures and other unrest which left him trapped on Urth. I read this as being divine punishment to humanity. For my 2 cents, it is probably a lot less than billions of years in the future, maybe a million. 66.194.50.2 18:05, 26 February 2007 (UTC)
In The Sword of the Lictor, ch. XIII, Severian recalls being taught that "in ancient times" the hearth of Urth was alive, and created new lands and new seas; now it is dead and cold. The implication is that the Earth has cooled so much that plate tectonics have shut down - an event hundreds or thousands of millions of years to our future. Or perhaps just that Master Palaemon wasn't qualified to teach geology.
Regarding the "worm" in the Sun being a black hole, I don't think the Prophet's description in Dr Talos's play (Claw, ch. XXIV) leaves much doubt: "Yet even you must know that cancer eats the heart of the old sun. At its center, matter falls in upon itelf, as though there were a pit without bottom, whose top surrounds it." He also says of it: "We know it to be far more, for it is a discontinuity in our universe, a rent in its fabric bound by no law we know. From it nothing comes - all enters in, nought escapes." Orcoteuthis (talk) 19:58, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
"since I think Lovecraft deals more with mythological types of creatures" As he originally wrote the stories the beings were immeasurably ancient aliens, At the Mountains of Madness is the best example of this. It was only after his death with the countless re-writes and pastiches that they became mythological, a battle between light & dark, etc. LamontCranston 23:50, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
"You were correct when you said Erebus and Abaia are as great as mountains, [...] Their actual size is so great that while they remain on this world they can never leave the water - their own weight would crush them. You mustn't think of them battering at the Wall with their fists, or tossing boulders about. But by their thoughts they enlist servants, and they fling them against all rules that rival their own." (my emphasis) That sounds exactly like the behaviour of Cthulhu in At the Mountains of Madness and other unaltered Lovecraft. Cthulhu was supposed to be as big as a mountain too. LamontCranston 6:57, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
It doesn't sound very much like Cthulhu at all. For a start, Cthulhu is not an aquatic creature - he is famously trapped beneath the waters, and when the stars are right again he will take over the surface world in person. The purpose of his human servants is not to conquer the world in his name, but to open his tomb at the appropriate time. In At the Mountains of Madness we learn that Cthulhu and his spawn conquered the lands from the crinoid Old Ones and later divided them by treaty, whereas the oceans are the place the later retreat to. Orcoteuthis (talk) 22:04, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Wolfe's subtlety

If Gene Wolfe had written The Sixth Sense, the twist would not have been revealed at the end. He would simply assume that his readers were smart enough to figure it out and if not, too bad. --Heathcliff 02:16, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Naw, that's not quite right. Now, what would be Wolfean is if you had a narrator who never mentions that he is dead, and never tells you why he is damned- oh wait. Never mind. --Maru 21:47, 31 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Interpretation

This needs massive expansion to do justice to Wolfe's work. There have been several published treatises on the subject, not to mention a whole culture of Internet discussion groups. References and citations, of course, are crucial here. We should aim for a structured description of widely-held interpretations rather than just listing any crazy theory some guy on Usenet cooked up. Some things that come to mind (and in no capacity am I knowledgeable on the matter) off the top of my head:

  1. Severian's parentage: The woman playing Saint Cassandra in the Seekers ritual is Severian's mother OR the Autarch is Severian's mother (yes, mother).
  2. Severian actually did drown in his childhood Gyol swim. ...etc.

Doubtlessly there are dozens more themes that can be relevantly explored in the article. Albrecht 17:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I'd furthermore state that the "interpretations" currently on the page are little more than tidbits of possible information regarding specific characters/places/times within the text--when I think of interpretations I think of full-scale readings of the texts, a comprehensive lens through which to view the story as a whole. DeadWolfBones 09:15, 2 March 2006 (UTC)

As it stands, the interpretation section is little more than an advert for the published treatises on the subject. I suggest that a new section is made for the little tidbits (like how the towers are spaceships and such) and the interpretation section be reserved for actual interpretation. I had a look online for good sources earlier, but had little luck in finding a good forum or whatever. I know that there is a mailing list, but I found it extremely difficult to navigate when I checked it out a while ago.

...

Nowhere in Book of the New Sun does it say that Valeria is Severian's wife or give any clue that she is his maternal grandmother. The series end's with him finding his way back to through the place with the sundials then ends. There's no development of Severian's relationship to Valeria beyond that. Also, why is this tidbit in the Interpretation sections? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.164.12.83 (talk) 22:45, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

The "extra" fifth book in the series Urth of the New Sun reveals that Severain and Valeria are married. The stuff about the maternal grandmother is a theory developed in one of the books

Peter Wright's Attending Daedalus, or Robert Borski's Solar Labyrinth (I can't remember which). Tomgreeny 23:23, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Whats the argument for it? LamontCranston (talk) 11:43, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I've always heard the grandmother argument in reference to Dorcas, and paternal rather than maternal. We meet Dorcas's husband on the lake by which Severian gets his avern, the old man with the raft and pole. We meet her son in the tree restaurant near the Sanguinary Fields; he leaves a note that says, "you are my mother come again." That middle-aged man bears a more-than-passing resemblance to Severian, and at the end of Book IV, he says he got a woman pregnant years ago who was subsequently given over to the torturers. Severian's mother was necessarily just such a woman, so all of these facts taken together point to Dorcas being Severian's paternal grandmother. This page is the first I have seen that discusses Valeria as his maternal grandmother, and I do not see anything in the books to back that up. - Filo 16:24, 1 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.85.200.218 (talk)

[edit] Characters

The character list is entirely from The Shadow of the Torturer and should be expanded to those introduced in the rest of the series. --Pokeyrmb 05:56, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

There are a few problems with the characters list, and descriptions should probably be expanded (no mention of Baldanders's giantism?) One description for example seems misleading -- the one of Jolenta as "a member of Dr. Talos' troupe, a stunning woman." In point of fact, she was an unremarkable-looking waitress who was made beautiful by the ministrations of Dr. Talos. -- teh l4m3 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.255.225.135 (talk) 01:14, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Influences &c.

I have deleted User:Geanwolfe's contributions in this area twice now. While I am certain they are good faith additions, they are a mess of original research along with unsourced claims. The body of the most recent deletion is as follows:

Although, Wolfe admittedly took the Idea of a future dying earth from Jack Vance, the similarities end at the atmosphere of the two novels. The author that seems to have had the most subtle and intricate influence on Wolfe is Jorge Luis Borges. In fact, the most perfect description of Book of the new sun appears in Tlön, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius the first short story of Ficciones. Where the narrator, possibly Borges himself, is having a discussion with Bioy Casares as to " the composition of a novel in the first person, whose narrator would omit or disfigure the facts and indulge in various contradictions which would permit a few readers - very few readers - to perceive an atrocious or banal reality." Not only is this not a coincidence, but in another story in the collection, Funes the Memorious features a character with eidectic memory like Severian. And also the names Baldanders and Talos appear in another Borges's collection titled The Book of Imaginary Beings. To top it all of, Borges himself appears in the form of Ultan the librarian, an unmistakable sign of importance Wolfe placed on Borges.

Other obvious influence is J.R.R. Tolkien to whom, Wolfe had written a fan letter in his youth. Wolfe also has admitted a strong influence by the kabbalah and the Bible.

Which as I am sure you can see would be too much of a nest of {{fact}} tags to make it up to quality, as it stands. There are certainly threads to be teased out of it that have value, & I don't mean to seem like a dick about deleting it-- it just isn't up to snuff, yet. --mordicai. 15:57, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Not sure what to do with this. Some of these are very obvious, but short of digging through the books on Wolfe like the stuff Borski publishes, how do you show that Wolfe knows Borges' work intimately and Ultan is an obvious reference? Similarly for Jack Vance - I know I've read sources saying that it is very obvious that Vance's Dying Earth influenced TBotNS, but I don't have them. --Gwern (contribs) 04:01 20 May 2007 (GMT)
Which is really why I pulled it out. I mean, I'm sure there is crit to be found on the Borges stuff, interviews, whatever. We just need to get that & reference the statements before including them. --mordicai. 13:35, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Correction about Loyal to the Group of 17

Ascians can all speak Ascian; Loyal to the Group of Seventeen was unusual because he understood and spoke the language of the Commonwealth (while still only expressing himself with the direct translations of approved Ascian phrases), and the female soldier in the hospital believes this is because he was an interpreter for the Ascians. -Father Inire 05:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Spoilers

Is it really necessary to spoil the book in the first paragraph? Usually that kind of thing is kept in the synopsis. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.177.253 (talk) 00:23, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, I think the lead paragraph is de-spoilified now. I left in the bit about Severian becoming Autarch, because that's revealed in the first chapter. Father Inire (talk) 09:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC)