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John Rambo 18:36, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

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Contents 1 No Evidence 2 There is evidence 2.1 Be Specific 3 Ludicrous 3.1 Evidence 4 Family names of Nayaks and relatives 4.1 Hyperenthusiasm 5 Not in good taste 5.1 Caste 6 Very clear Balija caste affiliation with Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur kings 7 Is it by choice one topic becomes controversial and the other becomes noncontroversial? 7.1 Caste 8 CASTE BIAS? 8.1 Reply 9 CONTROVERSIAL ? 9.1 Logic? 9.2 Evidence of Balija origin 9.3 Edit 9.4 Bibilography added 9.5 Clarificaton 9.6 Reverted edits by Kumarrao and Clarification for the same 9.7 No insult 9.8 Some more references 10 BALIJA ORIGIN

[edit] No Evidence

Thanjavur Nayaks were not Balija. There is no evidence in any of three references cited. Sevappa Nayudu who served in Vijayanagar court is considered a Padmanayaka Velama, although solid proof is not available. The Madhura Nayaks were Balija merchants who had long and bitter rivalry with Thanjavur Nayaks.Kumarrao 12:52, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] There is evidence

Thanjavur Naiks are Balija Naidus like Madurai and Vijayanagar kings. Please refer to Edgar Thurston's "Castes and Tribes of Southern India" and Kante Narayana Desai's "Balijakula Charithra".

[edit] Be Specific

It is very unfortunate that Wiki is being used to put forward unsubstantiated theories. One should log in with propoer User name and then should cite proper references e.g., which volume of Thurston's book and the page number. I could not find such a reference. "History" books writtten to prop up caste-based claims are not reliable. An important point was forgotten while claiming Thanjavur Nayaks belonged to Balija group. There was sworn rivalry between Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks right from the inception of these kingdoms. In fact, this rivalry went upto the extent of inviting muslim kings to destroy the fellow Hindu kingdoms. Chokkanatha Nayak destroyed Thanjavur on the "flimsy" marital ground. The affiliation of Thanjavur nayaks was not mentioned in any historical records. I also appeal to downplay the caste affiliation in Wiki articles. Subtle mention in the running matter does no harm. Kumarrao 12:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

True Kumar rao... Maybe you should go ahead and delete the words Kamma in Musunuri Nayaks.Please donot come and preach here!!!!!!! Anyway its the truth whats wrong in doing that ???

I see youve got so much of Knowledge that you have started to claim and say Edgar Thurston is wrong good work Dude... Madurai and Tanjavore were Enemies right from the inception... You are kidding me can you tell me when that was and how that was...

And reagarding your theory of Velamas being Tanjavur Nayaks there are contradictory proofs which say they are Balija and you are the only one who is claiming without proofs that they are Velama.Even the Velamas cannot counter this claim...

And for your information if you want to hold your argument that Madurai and Tanjore nayaks were sworn enemines right from their incpetion then the Viajaynagar rulers did not have any love lost for the Velamas they were defeated and subjugated and sent off from their native kingdoms to avoid trouble. And no sane emperor would gift his daughter and his lands to an Enemy which has such good history of upsurping rulers... (Musunuri Nayaks and Reddys) are very good examples...

Also one again please dont delete content and references in articles... When you cant show any prrof that they are wrong or atleast post valid counter arguments... PadmaVelama Nayaks were sworn rivals of the Balijas who ruled from chandragiri and they were reponsible for eliminating the last ruler of the Araveeti Dynasity of Vijayanagar and Tanjavore Nayaks were the ones who aided and supported the Vijaynagar rulers when they ruled from Chandragiri towards the end of the Vijayanagar rule...

And regarding the war on the flimsy ground of marital allainces its pretty much clear that Chokanatha Nayaka was a maniac and it showed in all his dealings and the way he ruled his kingdom...

[edit] Ludicrous

It is rather ludicrous to imply that authors like Thurston and the like wrote "History" books to promote caste- based claims.Thurston's book is not a history book ,it is an authority on Castes and Tribes of Southern India and is greatly respected by all except a few who may feel that Thurston's book became a big obstacle for spreading their half truths.

[edit] Evidence

I shall be happy to accept the theory of the anonymous Editor that Thanjavur Nayaks were Balija if sufficient evidence is provided. Desai's book is not reliable, which was what I meant earlier. I greatly respect Thurston's work. He said nowhere Thanjavur nayaks were Balija. If he said so, please mention the volume and page numbers. I shall withdraw my previous remarks in the Talk page. The surnames mentioned (both Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks) exist in many social groups of Telugu population. Please keep the articles academic.Kumarrao 18:29, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Family names of Nayaks and relatives

Before asking somebody to mention the volume and page numbers of Thurston book may I ask the gentleman to show the volume numbers and the page numbers of books that he read to prove that Thanjavur Nayaks were Padmanayaka Velamas and not Balija Naidus. By saying that the sur names of Madurai and Thanjavur nayaks exist in many social groups,it appears that he is making a futile effort to show that the Nayaks were not Balija Naidus and belonged to some other caste.It is a well known fact that sur names coincide in different castes of Telugu people and on that flimsy ground one can not attempt to prove that Nayaks belonged to some other caste and not to Balija Naidu caste. Whether it is going to help or not I am tempted to give a small piece of information here.Madura King Vijayaranga Chokka Natha naidu once held a great meeting in Sreerangam to which he invited all royal family members of his caste,Balija. The family names of the royal members were:

Garikepati(Madurai Nayaks'family name), Alluri(Thanjavur Nayaks'family name), Chinthalapuri (Kandy or Khandi nayaks'family name), Chenchi (Gengi Nayaks' family name), Thupakula (family name of Anantha bhoopaludu,Dalavai of Madurai king Vijayaranga Chokkanatha Naidu and writer of Vishnu puranam,Bhagavatham,Ramayanam,Bhagavadgeetha and Garalapuri Mahathmyam ) ,Thota, Pagadala, Degala, Neelakantham, Rayalakulam, Savaram,Puram, Setty, Katthi, Vazrala, Dalavai, Ande, Kunche, Javvaji, Gandhala, Gopisetti, Medisetti, Vanga, Enugula, Koppula, Kotte, Kanakala, Chandu, Yarramsetti, Yerra, Chinnamsetti, Marisetti, Pasupuleti, Kamatham, Manku, Dhanasetti, Sreepathi etc. Of course these family names can be seen in other castes also.

[edit] Hyperenthusiasm

The enthusiastic attitude of 65.24.145.57 is understandable but his innuendos against others are not in good taste. We are dealing with history. History, especially that of India and Indians, is hazy because of our casual attitude to account-maintenance, unlike European and Islamic traditions. 65.24.145.57 should note that I said Thanjavur nayaks are considered 'Velama'. I never mentioned it emphatically. On the contrary, 65.24.145.57 asserts Balija connection without proper evidence. I leave the matter to 65.24.145.57's discretion. I am wondering why 65.24.145.57 likes to remain an anonymous Phantom.Kumarrao 10:24, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Not in good taste

How come rehashing the same question and rendering some information became innuendos and are not in good taste? Then is it in good taste to call someone "anonymous phantom"and "hyperenthusiastic" ?

[edit] Caste

The caste affiliation is not clear. The citations quoted do not mention the caste affiliation of Thanjavur Nayaks. Page numbers may be mentioned if I am wrong. Kumarrao 14:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Very clear Balija caste affiliation with Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur kings

It was clearly mentioned in Edgar Thurston's "Castes and Tribes of Southern India "and in R.V.Russell's "The Tribes and Castes of Central Provinces of India" that Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur Kings belonged to Balija caste.The references can be seen in Edgar Thurston's volume 1 and R.V.Russell's volume 2. Edgar Thurston was famous museologist and ethnographer based in Madras. R.V.Russell was superintendent of Ethnography ,Central Provinces.I hope the information given by these authorities would clear anyone's doubt as to the Balija Naidu caste affiliation with Vijaya Nagar,Madurai and Thanjavur dynasties. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.136.234 (talk) 17:45, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Is it by choice one topic becomes controversial and the other becomes noncontroversial?

I am just wondering! I found that a duo is in the perennial habit of selectively removing one particular caste name on the grounds of controversy (inspite of the evidence )and selectively adding one particular caste name linking with the Nayaks inspite of controversy.Case in point : Thanjavur Nayaks versus Musunuri Nayaks. If this trend continues the very neutrality of the Wikipedia articles would be in jeopardy. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.24.136.234 (talk) 07:50, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Caste

It needs to be authenticated by proper citations with page numbers etc., See the article Madurai Nayaks and its Talk page for the citations about their caste affinity and who first provided these evidences. History does not change with caste biases.Kumarrao (talk) 07:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CASTE BIAS?

Quoting caste names of dynasties is not tantamount to caste bias.It is a historical fact. Madurai and Thanjavur Nayaks were Balija Naidus(Kapus/Telaga /Ontaris)and evidence for this abounds. Those who agonize at the very thought of these dynasties belonging to Balija Naidu caste and those who say history does not change with caste bias should realize that the mentioning of the caste name is not akin to caste bias and it amounts to telling the very truth. Mentioning of caste name is mandatory in this particular case especially in a world where truths are being highjacked by half truths and distortions executed by some with different techniques. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.81.199.139 (talk) 23:42, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reply

Dear 75.81.199.139,

You must first create an User Page with a proper Username to engage in Wiki contributions. Your inputs definitely betray caste bias. I have been emphasizing that the kind of evidence available for Balija affinity of Madurai Nayaks is not available for Thanjavur Nayaks. The matter is controversial. If available, please cite the books/inscriptions etc with proper reference to page numbers. Wiki will be enriched by truthful edits.Kumarrao (talk) 07:20, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] CONTROVERSIAL ?

It has become a norm to say simply the subject in question is "controversial" instead of telling the reasons why and how it is controversial. Readers will be greatly indebted if the truthful points are furnished as to why Thanjavur kings are not Balija Naidus.Wiki will be enriched if references with page numbers are provided as suggested.It is guaranteed that information as to why Thanjavur kings are Balija Naidus would be following later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.81.199.139 (talk) 00:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Logic?

Dear 75.81.199.139,

Your silence to the suggestion that you should take an Username is mystifying and is against Wiki guidelines. Your argument that one should provide evidence for something non-existent is contrary to the logic. You say that Thanjavur Nayaks are Balijas. Please provide evidence. The Users will be glad to accept. Wiki operates on evidence in an affirmative sense not on contradictions. If you persist on this the matter you will be taken to the Administrators.Kumarrao (talk) 10:07, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Continued: The analysis of the establishment of Thanjavur Nayak kingdom and the antecedents of Sevappa Nayak by V. Vriddhagirisan clearly showed that the identity of Sevappa Nayak is not clear. He might be a Nayak orphan who became the betel bearer for Achyuta Raya and whom the sister-in-law of the king loved and married. See the Google book: "Nayaks of Tanjore" by V. Vriddhagirisan, 1995, Asian Educational Services, ISBN 8120609964.Kumarrao (talk) 08:01, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Evidence of Balija origin

I have added the evidence that states that these nayaks are of Balija origin.Please refer the reference section for more details.

[edit] Edit

I referred to the citation which says, "....supposed to have been the Kings of Madura, Thanjavur and Vijayanagar". There is some evidence for the first but not for the other two. In fact, there are innumerable evidences to show that the Vijayanagar kings were of Yadava origin.Kumarrao (talk) 08:38, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bibilography added

I have added more sources where social scientists,historians,biographers and intellectuals have stated that Tanjore nayaks are of Balija/Kapu origin.In Balijakula Charitra too the author has mentioned about the matrimonial alliances between Tanjore Nayaks and other Balija Nayaks dynasties.The large population of Balija Naidus in Tanjore and their claiming Kshatriya status because of their elevated status also adds to the fact.So I have modified the statement as according to the historians. John Rambo 01:20, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Clarificaton

I cited above the exact sentence used by Russell which says "supposed to be". He also mentioned: "Bangle, Pearl and ornament sellers" which seems to be nearer to the truth, as we all know the social habits of different people in AP. Bangle sellers cannot be Kshatriyas by any stretch of imagination. Vijaya Kumari and Bhasker also made a sweeping proof-less statement that Kings of Madhura, Thanjavur and Vijayanagar were Balijas.

As history tells us, matrimonial alliances of ruling classes are not any indication of caste affinity. In fact, if you critically read the history of Madhura and Tanjavur nayaks, you will find that they were bitter enemies throughout which caused rifts among Hindu unity and helped Muslims consolidate their power in pre-British South India. Please give specific evidences as we can find for Madura Nayaks. I regret to bother you. Your edit is deleted.Kumarrao (talk) 07:06, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Reverted edits by Kumarrao and Clarification for the same

Dear Kumarrao, I have stated what many historians felt about which social group of Tanjaur Nayaks may have belonged...Its not only Russell but many others scholars too which I have mentioned ...So pls go through the other references I mentioned in the bibilography.All of them felt that Tanjaur Nayaks MAY be of Balija Nayak origin....All the historians and social scientists cannot be wrong ???....If they have stated some thing then there should some amount of research or study into it......Here in wikipedia we are not doing research where u mention thing only when you have all proofs...If that is the case then we would not be able to fill anything in these articles ... Here people who read this should known point of views of various scholars about a particular subject and we provide the references to it to support the statement ....I just said about what these scholar felt about Tanjaur Nayaks along with references....Its upto the users to decide or find out the real proofs...and if they find one which says that Tanjaur Nayaks are of so and so caste or group then they can mention the same in this article. So please refrain from making edits to it unncessarily.

• Regarding your comments that how "bangle sellers can be rulers" its in such a poor taste and insulting.....

FYI - Yadavs who are considered to be backward in South and North India have many Kingdoms in the ancient India and they claim kshatria status...So do u mean to say that now "how can a cattle rearer be a king" or claim kshatria status ???...Your statement is so demeaning,insulting and sarcastic..Please avoid such degrading and demeaning statemnets in future.... John Rambo 04:38, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] No insult

I absolutely did not insult anyone. Yes, as you said Yadavas ruled great parts of the country throughout history. Same thing holds good for the betel bearer who established great Madhura Nayak kingdom. That will not make him Kshatriya nor a community associated with trade and business will become Kshtriya. I hope you know the ancient Hindu varna system. If you insist reverting my edits, let it be so. I do not want continue arguing with you. I only wanted to bring credibility to any statements one makes. Suppositions do not validate the hypotheses.Kumarrao (talk) 18:30, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Some more references

In Harmony of Religions: Vedānta Siddhānta Samarasam of Tāyumānavar By Thomas Manninezhath, the author describes how the Tamil country was divided into 3 Nayakships viz., Madurai, Tanjore and Gingi under the Vijayanagar emperor Krishna Deva Raya (1509-29).

Snippet view:[1]. Youonlylivetwice (talk) 16:18, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] BALIJA ORIGIN

The Bangle sellers can not become Kshatriyas by any stretch of imagination as per Kumarrao would speak about the height of arrogance and the poor taste.In the olden days Sudra Kings of Thanjavur,Madurai and others belonging to Balija caste(Kapu/Telaga) were quite proud of their Sudra status and their enormous contribution to the art ,sculpture and literature(Telugu).By virtue of ruling the people they might have been called Kshatriyas.John Rambo is absolutely correct in saying that Yadavs attained Kshatriya status by becoming the rulers. No wonder , in the same token Bangle sellers could become the kings and attain Kshatriya status. I regret to inform you,Kumarrao that you coveniently avoided the important piece of information on Desa or Kota Balijas and laid emphasis on Gajula Balijas to suit your stale argument.According to R.V.Russell's "The Tribes And Castes Of Central Provinces of India" Balijas have two main divisions ,Desa (or Kota) and Peta, the Desas(Kotas) being those who claim descendents from the old Balija kings while the Petas are the trading Balijas and are further divided into groups like Gajula or Bangle sellers and the Perikis,the salt sellers. According to Paula Richman in "Questioning Ramayana:A South Asian Tradition"Raghunatha Nayaka who ruled Thanjavur during the early 17th century was Balija. According to the same writer Varada Raju ,another Balija claimed descent from Karikala Chola.This proves again that Thanjavur kings and Telugu Cholas were Balija Naidus. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.97.66.114 (talk) 01:11, 26 March 2008 (UTC)