Talk:Tenor/Archive 1

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Citation Needed?

"They are usually the protagonist, and most commonly the hero or the lover, though they are also the occasional villains (the Duke of Mantua in Rigoletto; Lieutenant Pinkerton in Madame Butterfly).[citation needed]"

This is just silly! Why is a citation needed for this? Anyone who knows anything about these operas knows these are the villains in these pieces, but typically in opera tenors are the sympathetic heroes. These are not opinions or obscure factoids. There are a million "citations" possible; it's like saying "Queen Elizabeth's sister was the late Princess Margaret."

Comment

I get tired of seeing "citation needed" overkill on Wikipedia. It kills the flow of the piece.208.120.100.30 05:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Are all these "Can also be played by a baritone" etc. comments necessary (much the same applies to other vocal range articles as well)? Any role, or almost any, can be played by someone whose range is categorized differently if that individual's range is a large one. Ou tis 18:34, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

Changed that disambiguation header; the page was said to refer to 'tenor' in music, but there are other meanings of tenor in music. Either someone fill in the tenor clef here or link it. --Carl Turner 09:24, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

Solid chest voice high C?

I don't understand why the article says that a true operatic tenor must be able to sing a "solid chest voice high C." If that's true, then virtually no man is a tenor. Unless a man has an extremely high voice (like a soprano), a good high C (C5) will always have some head register connection. The darkness and chest quality of a high C depends on the individual---for example, a dramatic tenor's high C would be more connected to his chest register (but not fully, unless he is shouting) than, say, a spinto or coloratura tenor's.

I don't think the author really meant what he wrote. As you mention all high C notes sung by men have a head voice component. What I believe the author was saying was that an operatic tenor should be able to sing a high C with a full voice as against a falsetto. I agree. "Chest voice" is misleading.

Intro

I changed the intro sentence so it didn't say tenors are male singers with a high voice, because I think that's misleading to non-musicians (high voice like Michael Jackson? Not exactly.). My substitution was simply to note that it's higher than a baritone and lower than a counter-tenor. I think that's fine, but if others disagree, I wanted to at least suggest "vocal range" instead of "voice." "Tenors are male singers with a high vocal range," would, I think, be fine. Or alternatively high tessitura. At the very least "high singing voice." In any case, I think it's fine as it is (2 is defined as the number between 1 and 3, not as high or low), as long as it doesn't go back to "singer with a high voice."

At the same time, I realize that there probably should be a rule against tenors contributing to this article...Mackan79 07:43, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

As the intro now stands, a lay-person can make almost no sense of the introduction. I think there should be something about a tenor's relative, place on the scale.

Tenor Classification

I've changed the tenor classification section to reduce "vocal lift points" to "lift points" - unless you're talking about jacking up a car, the "vocal" is redundant. More importantly, because lift points, transition points, and passaggio all refer to the same concept, I've collected them together in the same phrase for clarity and de-peacockization. I've also added a parenthesized definition of range and a capella music, same reason. Ivan Denisovitch (talk) 19:38, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

List of Tenors

David Bowie was added and removed from baritones. I don't know many of his songs but in "Life In Mars" he hits and holds many times high Bb with full voice - only tenor can do that. 20:16(CET), 5 June 2006.

Edited David Miller disambiguation, moved Brian Molko to countertenor's page. Added Michael Bublé. You know, there are so many tenors singing popular music there isn't enough time to fit them all in. Danypo

The 'Popular and crossover music' list is a joke. Many names are inappropriately included. Though some of them may have sung professionally and are singing artistes in their own right, they can hardly be called tenors. John Travolta is acknowledge as a fine actor but a tenor? If Bob Dylan and Roger Waters can be called tenors then, there is one glaring omission; Rex Harrison. Anyway, I am moving to include Sir Harry Secombe. The late entertainer is always good for a laugh and yes, he has a fine tenor voice. --Free Citizen 11:24, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

By the way... will whoever is doing the editing in the popular and crossover list please _stop_ putting "classical crossover" after certain people's names? This is redundant when they're already listed in a crossover list. Thanks. Danypo 14:59, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Just what is 'popular music'? Does it mean classical music is not popular? The meanings of words is important in an encyclopedic entry. So, they should be straighten out. Modern music is called Contemporary music. Crossover means two or more styles or categories. In this sense, just about every great singers of the classical styles were crossover performers. They include the great Caruso and new stars like Jose Cura. --Free Citizen 11:41, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Michael Buble is a lyric baritone, from what I've heard. His high notes are impressive for a baritone, but he doesn't qualify as a tenor. But these lists are stupid anyways.<<<<The preceding unsigned comment was left by 70.31.27.49.

I'd be interested in your sources, if you care to come back & sign in. I agree the lists are less than perfect, so if you want to help, let's do it! I have heard some great tenors recently and agree Michael doesn't quite have that high high range, but he's certainly much closer to a tenor range than a baritone range. His low notes are really, really lacking. He has a couple, but they don't sound good. I don't like using the term "baritenor", but... Danypo 14:06, 28 February 2006 (UTC)

I wonder at what point singers are regarded as having served sufficient time to be included in the list. If Andrea Bocelli can be included as an opera singer, there's no excuse for omitting Marcelo Álvarez, Juan Diego Florez, Rolando Villazón and a very great many others who have performed a great many more operas in Class A houses than Bocelli who is arguably a pop-singer-who-records-a-few-operas in the studio. I would be happy to add in a great number of singers to this and other voice categories, but won't spend the time if they will be deleted.

Dear unsigned, Wikipedia has a golden rule; if you are not prepared for your contribution to be edited beyond recognition then don't bother. But do include those names if you believe they are famous enough to warrant inclusion. However, Andrea Bocelli needs to be excused. He is after all blind and it would be kind of difficult for him to fill an operatic role on stage unless someone would like to write a blind man role for him. In any case, he is a fine opera singer albeit through a different medium. And he is world famous. So, his inclusion is justified. --Free Citizen 11:52, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

I took the liberty of adding Chris Cornell to the list of tenors in popular music. Michiel de Boorder

There is no way to realistically "artificially enhance" vocal range. I suppose it could be done...but even with modern day granular based pitch shifting it cannot with ANY degree of transparency. Additionally it is perfectly reputable to deduce the range of any singer (pop, classical, or anything) by considering their lowest and highest recorded notes. Voice quality is a bit more subjective, BUT not more subjective than in the classical world! I don't consider Fischer-Dieskau a baritone because he and his agents told me so, I consider him a baritone because of what I've heard come out of his mouth in song. I'm deleting the entire comment from the page. - Jmejia 23:17, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Geddy Lee

I removed Geddy Lee from the list of tenors, because although some of his music is in a tenor range, the vast majority is in the "alto range".

Separate list of lieder singers

I don't like the separate list of classical singers; they should all be in one list. Ian Bostrick sings opera, and many of the opera singers sing songs too. I would like to fold the two lists together. As for the pop list, ugh. Half of these bozos can't sing at all, and I say that as a fan of pop singing. And virtually none of them are specifically "tenors" in that the range of vocal notes they can push out is not an important part of what they do. And, finally, it's just inaccurate; I doubt half these guys can actually sing the range. I mean, Jack Bruce? Are you kidding me? Fnarf999 02:07, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

  • I've moved two guys up. This is also an alert: someone added three guys who are not even singers to this list, as sneaky vandalism. Will Bone-Bone? I don't think so (no Google hits). The other guys are a conductor and a race car driver.

Origin of the term

Once we get past the Latin root, this section seems to become a bit confused. Medieval and Renaissance are used in the same sentence apparently to refer to the same period. The information on countertenors is slightly inaccurate and is, in any case, not really related to the origin of the term "tenor." See the following quote from the Grove Dictionary of Music for more on that. I'm going to clean this section up.

"In the late 14th and early 15th centuries any tenor line in polyphony was almost invariably paired with a Contratenor part. These two lines, overlapping in range, shared the functions of providing both a harmonic foundation and a harmonizing part. (The contratenor, in fact, was occasionally called a ‘concordans’, a word that lingered in French usage well into the 19th century as a term for the baritone voice.) With the late 15th-century progression from three- to four-voice composition a contratenor bassus was introduced, which assumed the role of providing a harmonic foundation. Tenor and contratenor then became more clearly distinguished from one another, and the old contratenor became known as the Contratenor altus. It tended to lie slightly higher in range than the tenor – with the result that the word ‘tenor’ came more and more to refer to a vocal range." -excerpt from The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians MarkBuckles 13:55, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

rewrote entire section based on New Grove article MarkBuckles 14:19, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

Tenor Roles in Musicals

I think the qualification of some of the roles listed under this category should be reevaluated at researched. For instance, on Musical Theatre International's Pippin Page it lists both the Lead Player and Pippin as Baritones. MTI, being officially responsible for the licensing of the show is a credible source. -Averageneighborhoodsmartalec 19:41, 14 May 2006 (UTC)

removed these two roles from the list. -MarkBuckles 10:00, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


I changed "Erik The Phantom" to simply "The Phantom" in this category. While this is the character's given name in Leroux's novel, the name is never given in the musical.

Range

The top of the choral tenor range is generally Bb4, not G4. Unfortunately I can't see how this is debatable because that's what the composers call for. Two common examples that come to mind are the the Brahms Requiem and triumphal march from Aida, and there are others. On occasion even B4 and C5 are called for in the chorus part (Carmina Burana and Mahler 8th). It may not be easy and people may complain or have to slip into falsetto, but there it is. I also note that the visual "keyboard" representation of the tenor range in the article extends to Bb4, which must apply to choral tenors because solo tenors definitely need C5, particularly in opera. --highnote 05:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the key word in the sentence was rarely. But yes, I think even A's are fairly common. The examples you cite with the Bb's seem more like exceptions to me. MarkBuckles (talk) 14:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)
A's occur a lot more than Bb's to be sure, but one can't be too surprised when called on for a Bb (Vaughan Williams' Sea Symphony is another example). Except in solo work, anything higher than Bb is indeed rare.--Highnote 04:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
I changed it to rarely above an A, which I think is more accurate. Bb's for tenors in choral music are exceptionally rare, in a similar way to B's and C's. I don't have the stats, but I think this corresponds with a couple of things: 1. as Highnote says, A's are pretty common, but I don't think Bb's are. 2. Most choir tenors can squeeze out a high A, I think, but you lose almost all of them on a Bb. That's simply to say, I think A's are expected of tenors, but Bb's are particularly "rare" amongst choir tenors, and the literature reflects this. Basically I'd say low C to high G is normal, G# and A are the very high, and above that is the very very high. I don't think I've ever heard anyone talk of B natural and C as a separate group. Mackan79 07:28, 10 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you think it's a good idea at least to cite some roles which tenors must have very high notes? For instance, in Rossini's "Italiana in Algeri" the tenor have a high F (yes, F5)! Of course, few tenors can do that (Matteuzzi, Florez... maybe Blake and Kraus). Volneids 03:20, 20 January 2007 (UTC)