Talk:Tennis statistics

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Contents 1 Out of chrono order discussion 2 Inadequate titles 3 Rankings 4 There is one extremely simple way 5 Traits 6 Outliers 7 Interruptions 8 Active Players 9 Next Tier 10 Merger of articles into this one 11 Comments from this page creator 12 Category: GS won on last attempt 13 Won-Loss records 14 Reverting Information 15 Records 16 Open era statistics 17 POV & OR 18 Female Married Name Convention 19 Ladies Slams Without Loss Of A Set 20 And the french wiki pages ? 21 Slams/Majors?

[edit] Out of chrono order discussion

Surely the most rational approach on listing Majors is to list them all, including the Pros. A composite of Open and Amateur Majors is ridiculous. It is also misleading and inaccurate. I would suggest separate Amateur, Professional and Open leader boards. It doesn't add a lot of extra text, but it does add meaning and depth. As an Aussie, I remain mystified by Emerson's lofty rating when this guy was never ranked in the top two or three best players in any year and never won a Major against top competition. I have been working on a book on this topic for years Geist and McCauley tell part of the story. The best player and the toughest competition 1930 -1967 was a Pro playing professional tennis. Get the data right and all other debates - including the best player of all time - are solveable. PS Would you like to know BPOAT's name? He's not active on the tour, but he is alive.;) Doug HartleyDouglas Hartley 23:29, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

• • • • I almost agree your comments.

Sure Emerson is overrated but it is hard to compare him with Rosewall, Laver, Gonzales because his apogee was between 1963 and 1967 where the pros were banished from the traditional amateur circuit. The only possible comparison of this period is indirect : Stolle in 1966 (as an amateur)-1967 (as a pro). We can supposedly claim that Stolle and Emerson were quite equal in 1966 (perhaps Stolle was slightly superior that year) but it is sure that Laver, Rosewall, Gimeno (and Gonzales ?) were better than Stolle in 1967. So we can PERHAPS conclude that Laver, Rosewall, Gimeno were ahead of Emerson in the 1966-1967 era. Emerson's peak is supposed to be his 1967 Australian victory and then he steadily declined (nevertheless later he beat Roche in Roland Garros final and Santana in the Challenge Round) so it is unfair to judge him by only considering his open career. But it is clear that from 1968 Laver and Rosewall had much better records than Emerson (though in head-to-head matches he was almost equal to Rosewall but Kenny won the important one in the quarters of the 1971 Aussie open) and that Gonzales largely dominated Emerson in direct confrontations (something like 12-3).

But I don't fully agree with your assertion saying that the toughest competition was the pro one between 1930 and 1967 :

- in 1931 it isn't sure that Tilden (pro) was better than Vines (amateur) (Myers ranked Cochet as #1 amateur in 1931 but Vines had a better record).

- in 1932 and 1933 respectively Vines (amateur) and Crawford (amateur) were probably better than respectively Tilden (pro) and Nüsslein (pro)

- it is very hard not to say impossible to choose the best player between Vines (pro) and Perry (amateur) when they ruled their own circuit from 1934 through 1936.

- Budge (amateur) was probably at least equal to Vines, Nüsslein and Perry in 1937-1938 if not better (according to Ray Bowers, Budge and Vines only met once during these two years : early 1937 in Florida where Budge won their single set, 14-12; then they officially played each other at the beginning of 1939 when Budge slightly overcame Vines 22 matches to 17 : so it isn't wrong to say that Budge was possibly the best player in the world in 1937-1938 or at least a co-No.1)

- in 1939 pros Budge, Vines, Nüsslein and Perry were probably better than amateurs Riggs, Bromwich, Quist, Parker or von Cramm

- in 1940 pros Budge and Perry were possibly better than McNeill, Riggs, Kovacs

- in 1941 it is possible that Riggs (amateur) and Kovacs (amateur) were ahead of pros Perry, Skeen and Budge : both Riggs and Kovacs led Perry and Budge at the start of the 1942 pro tour. In fact after having reached his peak in 1939 Budge slowly declined : a) his motivation decreased given that no new great player turned pro and that Vines had retired (in 1941 Don toured against a 48-year-old Tilden), b) then he lost his great physical condition (hospitalized in October 1940 and in May 1941) and still looked overweight and out of condition in January 1942. Moreover in 1941 the U.S. amateur circuit included much more competition than its pro counterpart : all this explains why the 1941 pro vintage was a bad one.

- in mid-1942 Budge reached the second, chronologically, peak of his whole career (the first one being in 1939 and not in 1938) and it is probable that he, Sabin, Riggs, Kovacs and perhaps Skeen and Perry were superior to all the amateurs.

- in 1943-1944-1945 there was so few tennis events that it is almost impossible to establish a hierarchy (in 1945 Riggs overcame Budge 3-2 (pro) and Parker (amateur and both holder and future titlist of the US Nationals) in the Armed Forces meetings.

- Kramer thought that in 1946, as an amateur, he wasn't mature enough to beat pro Budge who was then second to Riggs (pro too).

- in 1947 Riggs (pro) and Kramer (amateur) were possibly equal. Nevertheless Riggs defeated Kramer 3 matches to 1 in 1947 (later Riggs led 8-5 in their pro tour then Kramer, knowing that if he lost the tour he could never be chosen for another future one, made the biggest and riskiest move of his whole tennis career and completely adopted the serve-and-volley game (Kramer, "The Game" page 160 : "Because it was the only way I could beat Bobby Riggs"). This bet succeeded beyond any hope because the results were wholly reversed at the end of the five-month tour in May 1948 : 69-20 for Kramer).

Finally from 1948 through 1967 the best player was surely a pro one except perhaps in 1952 : no one can compare Sedgman (best amateur) with Gonzales (best pro) for that year. Gonzales had dominated Sedgman in 1949 in the amateur ranks, then the two players didn't play the same circuit for 3 years (1950-1952) but in 1953 Sedgman beat Gonzales three times out of 3 without losing a set so it isn't clear who was the best in 1952 (I agree that from 1954 through the end of their career Gonzales used to lead the Australian except in 1958 when their win-loss tally was 4-4 (4-2 for Sedgman in "at-least-8-man" tournaments)).

Conclusion : the best player was alternatively an amateur player or a pro player between 1931 and 1947 and pro players really became the best ones since 1948 (with the possible exception of 1952).

Carlo Colussi 13:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

re: the SET rankings, the link appears defunct. Any such ranking's use is diminished without knowing the formulation for the ranking ...if the user knows it, I'd like to see it-- Billymac00 03:23, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

I CORRECTED WHAT MENTIONED ABOUT JUSTINE HENIN, AS SHE WON HER FIRST GRAND SLAM TITLE AT 2001, AND THAT MAKES THE SPAN 7 YEARS, BUT IN FACT, JUSTINE HENIN WON HER FIRST GRAND SLAM IN 2003, AND THAT MAKES THE SPAN 5 YEARS.

[edit] Inadequate titles

"Tennis statistics" isn't an adequate title because there isn't anything about professional tennis in the pre-open years : knowing that from 1948 to 1967 the best player was always a professional player and not an amateur one it would be fair to list some pro records. For instance Roy Emerson has perhaps won 12 Grand Slam amateur titles but the best players of the "Emerson era", Rosewall and Laver, were forbidden from playing any traditional amateur event because they were pros. So just to make justice I am translating in English a small article called "Tennis, male players statistics" that I've written in the French version of Wikipedia Carlo Colussi 13:42, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

That simply isn't true. Where this article covers only the open era, the article specifically says so. Much of the article covers the entire history of tennis. Tennis expert 15:35, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I repeat that this article completely forgets the professional circuit before 1968. Is there anything for example about Budge in 1939, his greatest year of his whole career, in this article ? Absolutely nothing though he has won the French Pro in Roland Garros over Vines, Wembley Pro over Nüsslein, his pro tour against Vines, his pro tour against Perry and also the pro tour in Europe against Vines, Stoefen and Tilden. In your article there is ABSOLUTELY NOTHING RELATIVE TO THE PRO EXPLOITS BEFORE 1968. Where are the French Pro titles of Rosewall, the US Pro titles of Gonzales, the Pro tours won by Vines ? Nowhere. So before 1968 you just have taken into account the Slam AMATEUR tournaments but nothing about the pro circuit because as many persons you brush away all the pro exploits forgotten or even ignored by almost everyone. But I have much more respect for Budge's victory at Wembley in 1939 than for Riggs's victory at Wimbledon the same year; there is no comparison between the superb Rosewall's victory at Roland Garros Pro in 1958 and Rose's victory at the same site in the amateur ranks and Emerson has won so many tournaments because he had not to face Rosewall, Laver and Gonzales who were pros at the same time. So when we talk about tennis statistics it is unfair and inadequate not to take into account Kozeluh-Nüsslein-Tilden-Vines-Cochet-Perry-Budge-Riggs-Kovacs-Kramer-Segura-Gonzales-Sedgman-Trabert-Rosewall-Hoad-Laver pro exploits before 1968. Carlo Colussi 09:53, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Correct me if I am wrong, but a lot of what you are saying is POV. And with all due respect, this is not "my" article. I have a lot of regard for professional players who toiled before the start of the open era. But what we put on Wikipedia has to have a neutral point of view (a corrollary of which is that Wikipedia is not the place for publishing your own thoughts or analyses), be verifiable, and not be original research. Tennis expert 23:55, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello

What means POV ?

You're right : this is not "your" article.

Now with you merging propositions I agree the article title : I ALSO AGREE THE MERGING OF "Tennis world champions named by the International Tennis Federation" AND "Male tennis players with most singles major championship wins" INTO THE "Tennis Statistics" article. Carlo Colussi 08:24, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

For more information about the requirement to maintain a neutral point of view, see the information at WP:NPOV. Tennis expert 15:43, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Rankings

Using statistics, likely any list of all-time greats would include (not in any ranking):

Men - Sampras,Laver,Emerson,Borg,Lendl,Agassi,Connors,Tilden,JMcEnroe,Perry,Edberg,Newcombe,Becker, and Rosewall.

Women - Graf,Court,Navratilova,Evert,Moody,King,Lenglen,Connelly,SWilliams,Goolagong

One ranking formula weights Grand Slam (GS) final appearances, GS titles, career duration, overall ATP/WTA singles titles, and a factor for how many different Grand Slams were won.

The above has not yet evaluated some older players(pre-WWI). I will provide the raw rating formula: K1*[GS finals+K2*GS singles titles]+ K3*ATP/WTA titles + K4*duration +K5*(GS doubles titles). I used K2=3,K3=0.1,K4=0.2,K5=0.1. K1=1.25 if won (4) different GS, 1.15 for 3, 1.10 for 2, 1.05 for 1 and 1.0 for none. The evaluation is gender-neutral and was derived without bias and apriori knowledge of the results. There would be some band (5%?) where numeric difference between players is insignificant. It allows one to do "what if" scenarios on active players like say Roger Federer.

Any rating system should reward success, breadth of play (considering both surface and singles/doubles formats), and impact/dominance on the game. "Duration" is a measure of career length, perhaps defined as the years between first and last qtr final appearances in a Major.

One can start from basic ratings and use other factors to arrive at their own individual order for all-time greats. Comparisons between players of different eras is not simple or straightforward to do. I would doubt any system that did not result in Graf and Navratilova ranked in the top women.

[edit] There is one extremely simple way

Career Prize Money Per Purchasing Power.

[edit] Traits

Looking at the list of all-time greats, most will have:

-at least 50 singles titles or Olympic medals

-10 or more Grand_Slam_(tennis)singles finals appearances

-7 or more Grand Slam singles wins

-have a career duration (as defined) of 10 or more years [measured from 1st title to the last appearance in a Final].

-have won at least 3 of the 4 different Grand Slams

-dominated during their era

[edit] Outliers

The male players will usually be tall (Agassi is one exception). It is uncommon to find players performing well on both grass and clay (Borg is one exception).

[edit] Interruptions

Pure statistics cannot account for nuances like career interruptions (Hingis,Capriati) and injury/catastrophe (Seles). Many would not question that Seles would have been on the list without events.

[edit] Active Players

Among active players, Federer, Hingis, Henin, and Davenport have the best statistics to move onto the list (as of 2006).

[edit] Next Tier

Remaining players who would be in the next group of great players might include Hingis,Trabert,Seles,Wilander, Federer, Davenport among others. Billymac00 17:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merger of articles into this one

I've suggested that various tennis statistical articles be merged into this article, especially where the articles are repetitious. I do not feel strongly about this, but it is a pain to keep up with several articles that cover the same ground. I propose that the merger be delayed until at least December 20, 2006, to give editors a meaningful opportunity to comment. Thank you. Tennis expert 17:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Hello

a) I've seen that you have rightly integrated the "World champions named by the International Tennis Federation" article in the "Tennis statistics" article but the "World champions named by the International Tennis Federation" article is still existing. Will it be automatically deleted or do you have to do it ?

b) Will you do the same for the "Tennis, male players statistics" article ? I think it would be adequate, don't you ? Carlo Colussi 15:25, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Tennis world champions named by the International Tennis Federation will be deleted soon. I do not have any plans to merge the Tennis, male players statistics article with the Tennis statistics article. The former still needs some editing and, in any event, the subject matter is different enough to warrant continuance of a separate article in my opinion. Tennis expert 17:33, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

I oppose the proposed merger. Since the world champion is named by the ITF and not the winner per se of a world championship tournament, this is not acctually statistics but more like a relatively important form of trivia. It should therefor have its own artice, but there should of course be links between the articles. John Anderson 08:45, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I oppose. This article seems bloated already for one page. Plus "Tennis male players statistics" deals with tournaments that this article pretty much forgoes. They don't seem to be a good fit to me. Fyunck(click) (talk) 23:54, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comments from this page creator

Hi, I created this page and have read some of the comments regarding the unfairness of having such a page due to comparison with pre-open-era statistics. I see my original introduction has been greatly edited but my intention was to merely provide the 'as-is' statistics and mention that these are merely an indication of greatness and many factors have skewed the statistics. I don't think it is ever anyone's intention to compare open-era players with the inadequacies of the past. At the same time it would be pointless to ignore the feats of the open era players who amassed statistics against all the pro's of their time. The argument one has for Rod Laver for example, was that he would have probably won many more Grand Slams and been at the top of the list, and few would deny that, but remember he notched up a few losses at the same time. Hence 'winning ratio' would be a better comparison, not? I am tempted to create a table of winning ratio for players who have won 6 or more slams. Also, regarding the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article, this is not an ideal comparison either as it ignores the years missed due to war by someone like Budge. The same for Rosewall who should not be granted 23 virtual slams, he was a victim of unfortunate circumstances like Budge. By the way I still think Laver was the greatest ever. Budge a close third. When (not if) Federer wins the French, he will be the greatest. Sandman30s 22:43, 3 February 2007 (UTC)

• • • • Hello. Answer from the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article creator.

'Winning ratio' is not the best indicator : it is just one of them. If you use that sort of ratio you could say that Riggs and Schroeder are the best Wimbledon champions because they were undefeated in the "Temple" (Riggs is even undefeated in doubles and in mixed doubles). Borg is often cited as the best "winning ratio" player but his career has lasted about a decade so it is easier in this case to have better ratio statistics than for a player as Tilden who has played about 40 years (1912 to 1952) in singles or Rosewall who has played 30 years (1950 to 1980).

You could also say that Agassi was unbeaten in the Australian Open from 2000 to 2003 and has won 21 matches out of 21 so a 100% ratio but he missed the 2002 edition because he was injured and then unable to win a match so it would be fairer to say that he has won 21 matches out of 22 but because he didn't enter the 2002 tournament official statistics are 21/21.

I entirely agree that the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article is not an ideal comparison. I've written it because almost all the players of the pre-open era are forgotten while they have made so much for modern pro tennis. So I've tried to give some examples of their feats. On one hand one of the great politics of Wikipedia is that one has to be neutral (I recognize I haven't always strictly been in the 'Ken Rosewall' article for instance : someone has erased two segments and I haven't reversed it because the NPOV argument was right even though I haven't appreciated the manner because no detailed explanations have been given) but on the other hand it is very frustrating because you can't point out the real tennis feats and you have to show "neutral" statistics accepted by the modern public. If I want to put Norman Brookes ahead I can't because he has won only 3 Grand Slam tournaments which are the only modern accepted statistics. Do you know that at the beginning of the century the most important tournament in Australasia was the Victoria State tournament and not the Australasian Championships ? Brookes played and won many Victorian tournaments while he just played (and won) one Australasian before World War I. He didn't play Wimbledon from 1908 through 1913 because an overseas trip cost much time and much money but when he came back in 1914 he just showed how great he was by winning once again the tournament that he had won in his previous trip in 1907. Norman Brookes was one of the best players in the world from 1908 through 1913 but he hasn't played any Grand Slam tournament (except the 1911 Australasian that he won) so if I had to be neutral I can just say that he has won 1 Grand Slam tournament in those 6 years but I can't say that he has won many (I don't remember how much) Victorian tournaments which were greatest at the time that some Grand Slam tournaments (moreover the Grand Slam concept didn't exist at the time). Idem for Anthony Wilding : in 1913 he won 3 World Championships (Wimbledon on grass (at the time this tournament was labelled as the World Grass Championship though the Americans rightly denied it)), the World Hard Court Championships at Saint-Cloud on clay and the World Indoor Championships on wood). The problem is that these World Championships (from 1912-13 to 1923) are almost forgotten today so it is hard to make some statistics about them because almost everybody doesn't care about them. For forty years (from 1920 through 1959) the greatest amateur event by very far was the Davis Cup Challenge Round so it should be put ahead every Slam statistics of the era but given that nowadays the Davis Cup has (almost) no importance compared to the Slam tournaments I can't "erase" Slam statistics in favor of Davis Cup Challenge Round statistics but I can guarantee you that greatest Tilden's feat was his 12 singles victories in a row from 1920 to 1925 in those Challenge Rounds and not his Slam victories. And so on.

The problem is that in 2007 only the Slam statistics really interest and then one considers that in the past it was the same and therefore all the other statistics are forgotten. In the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article I have just tried to recall some pre-open pro performances to make justice to some players of this era : in 1959 Gonzales, probably the best pro at the time trounced Cooper, who had made a little amateur Slam the previous year, in the World pro tour. Idem for Rosewall with Laver in 1963. I am fed up to read everywhere that Cooper had won 3 Slam tournaments in 1958 or that Laver has done the Slam in 1962 because those performances worth nothing compared to the pro performances of the time : Cooper or Fraser weren’t in Gonzales’s class nevertheless so few cite the great Pancho’s performances : in most of articles you can see that he has reached the semis at Roland Garros in 1968 but nothing about his Forest Hills pro wins in 1957 or 1958. Given that Forest Hills Pro tournaments of the 50’s doesn’t mean anything today if I write in a in 2007 Wikipedia article that those were major tournaments, people would answer that those are not major events because they were not Slam tournaments.

Knowing I have to be the most neutral possible I can’t cite Gonzales’s Forest Hills Pro wins as major ones but at last I’ve listed his major pro tours. Idem for Tilden I have recalled his Slam performances and I have added some of his pro victories but if I have wanted to make "ideal" comparisons I would have cited his 20's victories in Davis Cup and some other pro wins but it would have been a great "melting pot" considered as non-neutral. Same reasoning for Rosewall : the 23 major singles titles listed in the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article are "neutral" but as I have written in an old version in December 2006, considered as non-neutral and then corrected by others in January 2007, of the "Ken Rosewall" article I think that the Australian has won something like 21 tournaments equivalent to the modern Slam tournaments and this non-neutral list appreciably differs from the "neutral" list. So globally the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article is not an ideal source of comparison between different eras justly because of its neutralality but at least it gives some pre-open pro players statistics that are absent from almost all tennis articles. Of course many Budge's feats are missing from the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article but at last his major pro tours wins are cited (two of them during World War II) but I can't integrate some of his greatest wins : for example in 1939 he won the Southport tournament which was at least equal or even superior to the US Pro that year but I can't include it as a Budge's major win because the supposed major pro tournaments of the pre-open era were Wembley, the French Pro and the US Pro. How can I write something about his great 1940 season where he won 4 tournaments (the U.S. Pro, the Southeastern Pro at Miami, the North and South pro tournament in Pinehurst and the US Open at White Sulphur) out of the 6 he entered : I can just integrate his US Pro win as a supposed major one but I can't include the Miami tournament in Budge's major wins if I have to respect the NPOV though this tournament win should deserve to be included in any Budge's major wins list. In 1945 Riggs and Budge were considered by the majority of their colleagues as the two best players in the world. What they have done in 1945 ? Riggs has defeated Budge 3-2 in an US Army Air Corps versus US Navy series and Riggs has beaten Budge in the final of the greatest pro tournament of the year, The US Pro harcourt Championships" held at the Los Angeles Tennis Club. Both couldn’t do more because the war wasn’t over. Do you think that I can take into account these two Riggs's feats in Wikipedia statistics ? Of course not because no Wikipedia writer would accept that I put the 1945 Los Angeles tournament at the same level as a modern Grand Slam tournament though that tournament deserved it at the time.

So the 'Tennis, male players statistics' article has the merit to propose certain forgotten statistics and then to remind modern people that there were great pro players before 1968 as Gonzales, Rosewall, Budge, Kramer or Vines who made the majority of their career in the pro ranks : these players have then been forbidden to enter the Slam tournaments for many years (Gonzales 20 years, Rosewall 11 years, ...) so it is very easy now to say that Agassi or Federer are superior to Gonzales or Rosewall because the former have won more Slam tournaments than the latter : I don't agree at all with those silly arguments because I think that Tilden, Gonzales, Rosewall and perhaps Laver could have won something like 20 Slam tournaments if open tennis had always existed. So to make justice to these players I have listed some "neutral" statistics but if I had been "allowed" to make a non-neutral article but closer to reality I would have incorporated Brookes's victories in the Victorian tournaments or in Davis Cup, Doherty's feats in Davis Cup or Riviera tournaments, McLoughlin's wins in the Pacific Coast, Nüsslein's wins in the Southport tournaments, Vines's pro wins in 1934 in America or in Paris on indoor clay, Budge's wins in the 40s, Gonzales's wins at Forest Hills Pro or Los Angeles Pro, Rosewall's pro wins at MSG or in Australia, Laver's wins at the US Pro indoor in 1965 and 1966 and so on ... But I can't (I can but my article would be quickly tagged as non-neutral). Vines is nowadays completely forgotten but Tilden, Cochet, Austin, Budge, Perry, Nüsslein had all underwent at a moment or another the devastating power of his groundstrokes and knew what a good player he could be. The only statistics I could give were his major pro tours wins : I cannot list "The Eastern Pro Championships" in New York or the Germantown Cricket Club tournament (outside Philadelphia) as major tournaments in a Wikipedia article though they are truly great Vines'wins.

The 'Tennis, male players statistics' article is then a "stub" but if someone can grow it with new pro statistics of the pre-open era that'll be good. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think that whatever article you write in Wikipedia good comparisons between tennis players of different eras are impossible if we have to stay neutral. So the best we can do is showing statistics of all the eras and in particular of the pro players of the pre-open era which are usually forgotten and then not shown. I haven't seen anywhere before Michel Sutter did it in 1991 any almost exhaustive list of professional victories between 1946 and 1968. I haven't seen anywhere a complete list of the Rosewall-Laver meetings : you just have open era statistics though their rivalry climaxed in the pro ranks before 1968. Robert Geist had proposed a 85-100 head-to-head record in his Rosewall's book in 1999 then in 2006 after new researches he had new statistics more precise : 66-75 (Geist will again update these statistics with new discoveries) but he hadn't published them. So I've decided to list all the meetings I could find (in February 2007 I am at 61-72) in different sources (McCauley, John Barrett, World Tennis and so on) to show them in the "Ken Rosewall" article : who knows that Laver defeated Rosewall in January 1964 in on at last you can see that Laver played one of his best match of his entire career at Perth in January 1964 to defeat Rosewall or that Rosewall played magnificent tennis to beat Laver in Paris in 1963 : very few persons because if we believe "modern experts" tennis was born in 1968 and not in the XIX century.

My aim is then just to recall pro performances before 1968 because they are unfairly forgotten almost everywhere except in some obscure publications by Sutter or McCauley or Bowers or Geist.

As I’ve written elsewhere Grand Slam tournaments have been truly the greatest events, from a sporting point of view, since 1983 but it wasn’t the case before and in particular before 1968. Pro tournaments and some amateur events as the Davis Cup were superior to Slam amateur tournaments. Another example : the Pacific Southwest Championship in Los Angeles from its very beginning in 1927 to 1972 attracted much better fields than Roland Garros or the Australian. Vines, Budge, Kramer, Segdman, Rosewall or Hoad had regularly played at the Pacific Southwest but I know that Vines as an amateur has played just once in Australia and never in Roland Garros amateur, that Budge has only played one Australian amateur and one Roland Garros amateur, that Kramer has never entered the two tournaments (but he has played one Roland Garros Pro in 1958), that Hoad has not played Roland Garros in 1955 and above all that Rosewall has missed Roland Garros 1955 and 1956 when he was the best amateur on clay (his best surface) in order to prepare Wimbledon. In 1953 almost all the best amateur players entered the Pacific Southwest (Trabert, Seixas, Rosewall, Hoad, ...) while almost no foreign player came to play the Australian Championships nevertheless in modern statistics only the Australian tournament is remembered. In 1953 the true best players in the world were Kramer, Segura, Sedgman and Gonzales who couldn’t play neither the Australian nor the Pacific nor Wimbledon nor Forest Hills : three of them played in a pro tournament in Lyon (France) but no one consider it as a major tournament though there were 3 of the 4 best players in the world but (almost) everybody considers that Forest Hills amateur was a major one although none of the 4 best players were present. Then if I have to be neutral and to write something in Wikipedia I would pick Forest Hills amateur 1953 as a major event but if I want to give a true account of the 1953 season I would pick Lyon pro and would forget Forest Hills amateur and consequently I’d write it elsewhere than in Wikipedia.

Carlo Colussi 14:31, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

You know I've read these comments a few times and have not had the strength to reply. There is such a wealth of information here, and you are obviously such an expert on the subject matter, that nothing I can say in argument will do any justice to your thinking on the matter. I agree with most of what you have to say anyway. At the end of the day everyone will have an opinion on the injustices of the past. The same can be said for most sports. In the "pre-media" era, things were a lot different. "Marketing" and endorsements were unheard of. Sports were played by amateurs, with prize money paltry to inadequate. Sports-enhancement drugs were non-existent. Cheating was not considered as sports were played by gentlemen. Look at today's commercial world... quite different. There should almost be pre-media and post-media lists and comparisons. As the world of sports progresses, I think the thinking around these comparisons will become more mature and certainly more scientific. Something like the ELO rating of chess, with who-played-who statistics, with weightings for stronger tournaments. However the grand slams continue to be the hallmark for tennis at least. Sandman30s 19:37, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Category: GS won on last attempt

This is a quite undistinguished category, with only Sampras here cited. There were many players in the pre open era, who won a major on their last attempt, meaning the last time the played a major, beginning with Fred Perry, who won Forest Hills, before turning pro, or Don Budge, Jack Kramer, Tony Trabert and others. So better leave it out (german friend 14.3.2007) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.60.149.64 (talk • contribs) 08:26, March 15, 2007 (UTC).

Add to the category, don't leave out the information. Tennis expert 19:50, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Category should be deleted as 'nonsense'. Most players prefer to go out after they're sure they can't win anymore. Sampras retiring early doesn't make him a better player.Ryoung122 20:29, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Won-Loss records

I think it is ridiculous to order the 'Grand Slam champions' by won-loss record in finals. Ok, so winning 8 of 10 finals is impressive. On the other side of the coin, I think Lendl getting to 19 finals is more impressive than someone getting to 10 finals. So, should making a good effort at runner-up be seen as a negative?Ryoung122 20:30, 7 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. Won/loss in a final catagory sems like a waste of space.

AGREE, ALSO THE RUNNER-UP PLAYER, IS A PLAYER WHO MET THE WINNER IN THE FINAL, I MEAN, HE COULD LOSE TO HIM IN SEMIS OR QS, ETC.

I think you should merge it.

[edit] Reverting Information

We have a a bit of a problem here. Most articles on wiki, encyclopedias, almanacs and sports guides do NOT count the pre-1925 French championships as a major i.e slam title. Only one French club was allowed to participate. This of course changed in 1925. Even in this article I see all the tables "exclude" French totals before 1925... all tables but one: Most Grand Slam Singles Titles (all time). I keep trying to correct this error to conform to most publications but this one guy, Tennis expert, keeps reverting it. Of course someone like Borotra won the title but not when the tournamant was recognized as a major. So on a French Open site he/she would be listed as a champion. On a "majors" only site he/she would not. As an example it's possible that today's China Open could one day be given the status of a 5th slam because it would add Asia to the mix. So in 2025 we have a newly designated slam. At that time they certainly wouldn't consider someone who won the China Open this year (it happens to be Fernando Gonzalez) as a past slam winner of the event. Either the title of the table needs to reflect this by removing the slam reference or Borotra needs to be moved down a notch, as I have done. I'll keep trying to make the correction but I'm not sure it will ever stick. Fyunck(click) (talk) 00:43, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:08, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Records

I was just going to remove it but maybe someone here has a great reason to keep it. The lines under records: (Maria Sharapova in 2005 became the first Russian woman to reach the number one spot in the rankings, holding it for seven non-consecutive weeks) and (Maria Sharapova in 2004, became the first Russian woman to capture the Wimbledon title defeating then-favourite Serena Williams) seem strange to be in this article. If we include a first for every nationality this article will become more bloated than it already is. Someone is going to come along and add everyone under the sun and we won't have a leg to stand on because Sharipova is already there. I say remove it now before problems arise. Fyunck(click) ([[User talk:Fyunck click)|talk]]) 10:27, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Open era statistics

I think it should be made clear that all the male statistics are taken from the ATP web site. A source I don't regard as definitive or particularly reliable. The site is only as good as the researches they employ. For instance Vilas' winning steak is 50 matches in 1977 if one includes the Rye tournament in New york. he also won 17 titles in the year. Rod laver won 18 titles in 1969 and had 31 match winning streak that year. Lendl's 44 winning streak and his 66 indoor streak was stopped much earlier by Connors at the Chicago tournament of Champions in Jan 1982. wtre The ATP site is pretty useless for statistics before 1971. A look at the ITF web site will produce substanially different coverage for 1968-70. The world no1 statistics are the ATP computer not necessarily a good guide to the no1 ranked player in the 1970's and irrelevant for the 1968-72 period. jeffreyneave 25 feb 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.159.208.23 (talk) 15:05, February 25, 2008

[edit] POV & OR

No matter what this articles states, the World Hard Court Championships and the pre-1925 French Championships are not considered grand slam titles by outside sources. This needs to be fixed before this wiki article can be looked at as factual by children, teachers, researchers and casual readers. FreepRipper (talk) 20:03, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Female Married Name Convention

What is the convention with female married names? I ask because it seems strange that she is listed here as Maureen Connolly Brinker when she didn't get married until AFTER she retired from tennis. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:44, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

She was heavily involved in tennis after she retired from playing and went by either Maureen Connolly Brinker or simply Maureen Brinker. Also, including both maiden and married names reduces confusion for people who do not follow tennis closely. Tennis expert (talk) 20:47, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't say heavily involved... but she coached and worked for newspapers as many ex-players do. Shouldn't we also write Steffi Graf Agassi or Althea Gibson Darben? Fyunck(click) (talk) 21:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Connolly Brinker also had (or has) a tennis foundation and was the name of a prominent tennis tournament in Dallas. Steffi has not adopted her husband's last name. I don't know whether Althea ever did. Tennis expert (talk) 21:13, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ladies Slams Without Loss Of A Set

I would say this catagory is not worthy of being a statistic. In some slams there may be more years with no sets lost than there are years WITH sets lost. It's almost as though if you can't win without losing a set, it was a poor performance. The men are a different beast entirely but the ladies would be a long list even if you kept it down to those who had done it multiple times. Thoughts? Fyunck(click) (talk) 10:06, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] And the french wiki pages ?

Why don't translate this article on the French Wikipedia ? Please Mr Colussi...Thank you beaucoup.

Fred30_13 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Fred30 13 (talk • contribs) 23:41, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Slams/Majors?

I can live without it but it seems really strange not to include it. All my life the individual slam titles have been called "Majors", heck they've been called "Majors" longer than they've been called "Slams." So in the opening description why wouldn't we want to include this fact in a way such as: "These tournaments, often referred to collectively as "Majors" or "Grand Slam tournaments?" I added it and it was reverted. This is a comprehensive encyclopedia and this is "Tennis Statistics." It seems like a good place to acknowledge this fact. Fyunck(click) (talk) 17:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Because the term "Grand Slam tournament" is used in lieu of "Major" in this article. The same reason you wouldn't define a term for purposes of an article when you never use the term in that article. Besides, "major" is so ambiguous as to be confusing. For example, lots of people call the Tennis Masters Series tournaments "major." Tennis expert (talk) 17:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

But why can't we use both in the introduction? It would be more encompassing. I agree that only one should be used throughout the article and "slams" would be the unit of choice, but in tennis (as well as golf) the big 4 tournaments have mostly been known as "Majors" until very recently. If an item in an article has multiple names wiki usually lists them and then uses one throughout the article for conformity sake. But to purposely ignore that it exists seems an injustice to those seeking information on the subject of Tennis. I can see that the best place will be to fit it in the wiki article wiki/Tennis but it really should be in this one also. Fyunck(click) (talk) 19:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

What is your source for saying that "until very recently" the Grand Slam tournaments "have mostly been known as Majors"? Tennis expert (talk) 20:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't have a handy source which is why I wouldn't word it that way in an article unless I dug it up. In the 70's when I played in high school and college they were simply "the majors." Sometime in the 80's the press started calling them "slams." In the 90's the press, using very poor English, started calling them "grand slams." All terms are appropriate today though I usually call them slams and sometimes majors... never grand slams. I can't bring myself to using such a poor term as "grand slam" unless we are truly talking about winning all 4 majors, the "Grand Slam." I've read articles from the 50s and 60s that use the term "major" but before that I have no idea if they used other terms. So recently, to me at least, would be the 80's. Fyunck(click) (talk) 20:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I have always thought "majors" were golf tournaments. Never mind my thoughts, the following tournaments currently describe themselves as "Grand Slam" tournaments:

Australian Open

French Open

Wimbledon

US Open

So let us stick to what is the current and common usage (I also remember as a boy late 60s that a GRAND Slam meant winning all four in a year - but that terminology has been washed out during time). If some can provide citation that the tournaments were widely acknowledged as "majors" earlier, then it is of interest. I didn't know it. --HJensen, talk 07:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually what I wrote is when I first heard the term "Majors." It is still widely used to this day. Here is an article from CBS and Sports network.

"Three-time Major Tennis Champion Lindsay Davenport Is Pregnant. Congratulations to Lindsay Davenport and husband, Jonathan Leach who are expecting a baby in the summer. Lindsay Davenport has accomplished a lot in women’s tennis. She finished the 1998, 2001, 2004 and 2005 seasons as the number 1 ranked woman singles player in the world. She won the following majors: U.S. Open womens singles – 1998, Wimbledon womens singles – 1999, Australian Open womens singles – 2000."

I certainly don't want to replace the term slam or grand slam but this is an encyclopedia and it should tell the reader all the terms in use, not just some of them. The use of the word slam to indicate one of the 4 Majors is really quite new. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:23, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the term is not new, and you have not cited anything to support the assertion that "Grand Slam tournament" is a new term. And an encyclopedia clearly does not have to mention everything under the Sun. Tennis expert (talk) 07:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

The term "Grand Slam Tournament" is relatively new. Why should I cite it??? I didn't edit anything that said the term was new, I only mention it here. Calling them grand slams was something invented in the mid-late 80s by people misusing the term slam. The press then started making the same errors and we have the stew today...not knowing what someone means when they say grand slam. Now that's the way language works and I don't deny it, slang becomes non-slang. All I'm saying is the term Major is still widely used in print today. Fyunck(click) (talk) 07:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)