Template talk:Temperament2

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The humours were not well defined or clear in their use in ancient times. The ancient ideas are loosely correlated to the modern notions of the four temperaments, exact correspondence in details (such as the elements) cannnot be achieved. The four body fluids are Hippocrates - elements should not be included, and are not part of the tables in Please Understand Me or Please Understand Me II, despite the implied reference.


I'm a little confused about the elements that correspond to the humours. Before my edit, fire was with sanguine and water with choleric, which didn't seem right at all. Not only that, but at the page for choleric, information was given saying that fire corresponded to choleric. I changed the template so that it made sense to me. If it's inaccurate and you have reason to believe so, please let me know here.

Based on http://www.stanford.edu/class/history13/earlysciencelab/body/liverpages/livergallbladderspleen.html] I've changed the yellow bile to be sourced in the gall bladder and the black bile in the spleen--Cgbraschi (talk) 11:01, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] This template is now incorrect

This template is now severely incorrect. Please compare the current version with my original. SJs are winter, not autumn, for example. --Alterego 15:43, August 1, 2005 (UTC)

Hi

From Keirsey I understand that Phlegm is associated with Rational not Guardian!

Michel papa.tuti@gmail.com

The info in the template is incorrect. Paracelsus elementals are in the wrong columns. See the Paracelsus page for details. I will change them if someone can cite a source where they are different they can change them back.--NeilEvans 17:19, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

The problem here is that Keirsey's temperaments do not match the modern concept of temperament. That is why they correlate inconsistently. I have been participating in a Yahoo discussion on KTT, as I was dumbfounded that Keirsey could claim the NF "Idealist" was the Choleric, and not the NT Rational. I saw that on this template long ago, and was getting ready to change it, but held off when I saw the same correlation on Keirsey's own site. Yet others did liken the Idealist to the Phlegmatic, and the Rational to the Choleric. Still others claimed the Guardian was the Phlegmatic, and yet still others said the Guardian was the Choleric. Basically, as one person explained to me, the Keirsey temperaments are more like the original "humor" concept, where the characteristic traits only came out under stress. So the Idealist IS normally a peaceful temperament, but "becomes Choleric" under stress. (And since KTT descriptions of the temperaments focus on the positive traits, you can read and read and never see this!) In our modern understanding of the temperaments, the Choleric is always the extroverted, directive "leader" type we have associated the term with. Yet, as the people on the KTT board explained to me, our concept of the "Galenic temperaments" more closely matches with the Interaction Styles Linda V. Berens highlighted and mapped to the 16types model. These interaction styles are roughly, ETJ/ENJ/EST, EFP/ENP/ESF, ITJ/INJ/IST, and IFP/INP/ISF. Each style shares one type with each SP/SJ/NT/NF "temperament". Together, this makes up the 16types.Eric B 05:07, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but Idealists are not peaceful. They desire harmony, but they're passionate about their beliefs. They also value emotion, and express it quite easily, especially if they feel someone else has been acting insensitively. Rationals, on the other hand, generally have a calm demeanor because they value self-control. To my mind, they're the picture of the Phlegmatic temperament. ThreeOfCups (talk) 03:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Add header row

Unless someone objects severly I will add a header row:

Date Author Sanguine Choloric Melancolic Phlegmatic

Cosnahang 15:41, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Since this template was developed for the Keirsey Temperament Sorter article, I changed the headings to Keirsey's terms: Artisan, Idealist, Guardian, Rational. ThreeOfCups (talk) 00:01, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Columns now correct

No. No. No. This next paragraph is all wrong.

I always knew that SP was Sanguine, NT was Melancholic, NF was Phlegmatic, and SJ was Choleric. All the books I read on the topic always matched them up like this. I was disappointed to find that several sites have those scrambled. Those needing a source, I found one which matches the above.

http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?node_id=1342452

So I corrected the 3 wrong rows at the bottom of the right 3 columns. So now, things seem to match. There might be others rows of which I am not aware that need correcting too. 75.191.135.245 (talk) 22:38, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello people...

Maybe those interested in using the table for something else, other than Keirsey Temperament Sorter, should not use this table. It originally was created to explain Keirsey's Keirsey Temperament Sorter and his descriptions according to him. If you have other opinions, create another table and use that for you purposes, you can reference any source you want. NT is Phlegmatic, NF is Choleric, SJ is Melancholic in Please Understand Me and Please Understand Me II. Get over it. Make another table if you want with any mixture you want -- but don't attribute to Keirsey and don't use it in refering to Keirsey or the Keirsey Temperament Sorter.

I believe the table is now correct, but I hardly think that Everything2 constitutes even a remotely reliable source. Geoffrey Spear (talk) 18:16, 11 January 2008 (UTC)