Talk:Technical death metal

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[edit] Meshuggah

Meshuggah is hardly a technical death metal band. Sure, they are complex but they do not have strong elements of death metal in their music. Nonreliable/unknowledgable sources(in terms of death metal)were also supplied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.144.32.250 (talk) 15:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

I'll repeat what I said before: "they fit the description (unexpected, difficult to play, difficult to comprehend, written without distinct choruses, layered time signatures, dissonant or atonal guitar riffs, jazz fusion influences).". They have significant death metal traits like guttural vocals, fast paced (older albums) heavily distorted downtuned guitars, fast solos, etc. And why would the sources be "unknowledgable"? Blender is a respectable review site, and about.com:heavy metal is a well known metal site. Meshuggah have a lot in common with bands like Coprofago and Martyr if you ask me. They're not the average technical death metal band (if there is such a thing) but they definitively fit the genre. Emmaneul (Talk) 15:41, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I love Meshuggah and all, but surely they lie on more progressive/experimental side of avant-garde/math metal. I mean, sure they have elements of tech death, but the predominant elements of their music lie in a more progressive sense. Their latest efforts are also vapid of tech-death elements; they are fairly easy to play, not terrible difficult to comprehend, and theres little to no jazz fusion left(as Fredrik hardly writes leads anymore.) I also wouldn't trust Blender personally for anything Death Metal related, but that's just me.
Also, Encyclopedia Metallum categorizes them as 'Technical post-thrash.[1]' Perhaps it would be better to put them under that category? --Tsunekuni 22:55, 10 September 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree. Their latest efforts aren't fast but still are extremely difficult to play. Have you ever heard their timing? The timing is extremely complex. Polyrhythms, odd time signatures, unpredictable turns, long chromatic riffs difficult to memorize, thing reminiscent of f.e. fusion band Steve Coleman And Five Elements. Nearly all professional reviews I read are praising their technicality. Their music might not be fast (anymore) but it's still technical. Listend to Mind´s Mirrors (Catch 33). They play the exact same thing live.
Encyclopaedia Metallum is a nice site but not a metal authority. The genres you mentioned "progressive/experimental ... avant-garde/math metal" aren't mentioned either. Many sources consider Meshuggah death metal and I can understand why. Listen to songs like The Mouth Licking What You've Bled and Concatenation (Chaosphere) and you will hear many characteristics of death metal: fast low tuned heavily distorted guitars, fast chromatic riff, and solos, fast double bass parts, grunted/screamed vocals. They're technical death metal, amongst other genres such as avant-garde metal and progressive/experimental groove metal. Emmaneul (Talk) 21:22, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Uh, I've heard all their CDs and am quite a big fan. Catch 33's material is far easier to perform then the stuff present on DEI and CS(which really isn't too bad either, minus the leads). It's not terribly tough to remember, either.
I'm not denying the death metal elements they may indeed have, but I'm trying to say that they are more progressive in their approach(IE, odd time signatures/structures). I think they'd be more at home in the progressive metal list(and are already present there.) --Tsunekuni 21:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
This sounds like original research, I don't believe their music is "not terribly tough to remember" and relatively easy to perform. Some parts have such long complicated rhythms and variations they almost sound randomized. I've never read a professional review stating their new work was easier to perform. In fact I've often read the opposite, their new work is considered more complex. Emmaneul (Talk) 22:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
What I'm trying to get at is that the music is not difficult to perform when compared to technical death metal bands such as Spawn of Possession, Carcariass, Martyr, Gorguts, Misogyny, etc etc etc. Also, when reading a "professional review," you must keep in mind that the reviewer may not, in fact, be a musician. He/She might not have any idea what a polyrythm is at all(I would hope someone reviewing Meshuggah does, heh). Then you are left to your ears. And when I listen to Meshuggah I hear far more progressive elements(oddball time sigs, complex rhythms with traditional instruments, unique song structures and such). Sure, some of the elements of progressive metal are akin to technical death metal, but that does not mean that they are tech death.
I'm trying to make a point, being a tech death fan, enthusiast and player that Meshuggah just doesn't quite cut it as a "tech death" band. Progressive death is a far more suitable title that accurately describes their compositions, much more so then "tech death" can. --Tsunekuni 03:30, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
As you've provided no argument to what Tsunekuni said, I removed Meshuggah from the page. --205.144.32.250 16:31, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I didn't reply because Tsunekuni was not bringing new arguments to the discussion. They are considered death metal by many sources (see here). They are certainly technical (just listen to Thordendal's solos and look up Haake on youtube). They fit the technical death metal description in the article. There are sources to back it up. Emmaneul (Talk) 16:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
If technical death metal were decided on solos, then certaintly we could count Morbid Angel, Obituary, and many other old school death metal bands. If we counted drums, then a good portion of brutal death metal could be counted as technical death metal. You need all the elements combined. Which, when combined, I wholeheartedly agree with Tsunekuni. The overall sound is more progressive, and the approach they take is progressive. Thusly, I would deem them progressive death metal. --205.144.32.250 17:04, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
There you go, brutal death metal and old school death metal (like Morbid Angel) are fast but generally are not that difficult to comprehend and have no jazz fusion influences. Both jazz fusion influences and extremely complex song structures are typical technical death metal (and Meshuggah) traits. All Meshuggah members play complex, jazz fusion influenced, technical beats and riffs. Emmaneul (Talk) 17:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
I checked out your sources. Blender? Hardly a decent source of death metal news. Sure, it's a source, but it's not a decent source of death metal news at all. I was not able to access the second source, but the first source(about:heavy metal) has conflicting statements on Meshuggahs music, and the fact that God Forbid is in a top metal list slightly discredits the news source. --205.144.32.250 16:43, 20 September 2007 (UTC)
Why should the sources be death metal news oriented? Blender has a good reputation and is considered a good source of professional reviews by WikiProject Albums. The 2 metal sources, Metal Storm (I don't have any problem accessing it) and About:Heavy Metal (conflicting statements?) are respectable metal sources as far as I know. Please stop all the original research. Emmaneul (Talk) 17:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Sources

I looked up sources for the bands in the list, mainly from Encyclopaedia Metallum, to be assured the listed bands should be in the list and to comply with WP:LIST. I couldn't find any good sources for some bands (I just did a brief google search), so if someone can find some sources for these bands, please add them (if no sources can be found, after a while, the bands will be deleted from the list). I might do this for other music related lists in the near future. Emmaneul (Talk) 14:35, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

I think we have a serious problem here. Why are people using Encyclopaedia Metallum as a legitimate source? Don't get me wrong, it's a fantastically useful cite, but much like Wikipedia is written by whoever fancies logging on and submitting stuff. We can't possibly use it, so all of the bands you seem to think you have sourced, are in fact not. Find other sources, or I'll have to flag the page. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 20:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I'll agree, it can't really be used as a trustworthy source since anyone can get on there to edit it.Felix-schade (talk) 02:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Unsourced bands

These bands have been added but I couldn't find sources stating they are technical death metal. I've put them here on the talk page (according to WP:VER: "Any edit lacking a source may be removed, but editors may object if you remove material without giving them a chance to provide references. If you want to request a source for an unsourced statement, consider moving it to the talk page."). When good sources are found they can be put back in the list.