Talk:Taser controversy

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Contents

[edit] Drive Stun

There should probably be a mention and/or link to the "Drive Stun" section of the taser page.

It's very important to note the difference between shooting someone with a taser (firing the barbs that piece the skin) versus drive stun mode, which does not piece the skin and does not cause a disruption of the nervous system. Many cases where the police are reported to have used a taser were, in fact, cases where they used Drive Stun mode and the health risks associated with using the barbs do not apply.

The linked UCLA case is an example of that. He was tasered only in drive stun mode, so the paralytic effects of firing the barbs never came into play.

(The paralysis comes from bypassing the resistance imparted by the skin, since the barbs piece the skin and also because the fired barbs tend to land far enough apart to have a serious impact on the nervous system, whereas the prongs used in Drive Stun mode are too close together to cause a wide arcing electrical effect. Police are actually warned about this because hitting someone in Drive Stun mode does not impair their ability to fight, whereas shooting them with the barbs pretty well renders them unable to do anything for a short time.) --TheCynic 01:36, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

According to the police report, "Drive Stun" was also used in the University of Florida Taser incident. Flatscan 04:20, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
According to the page on the UCLA Taser incident "Of the ten UC campus police departments, six have equipped officers with Tasers, but only UCLA has a flexible policy authorizing Tasers to be used as a pain-compliance tool against suspects who are passively resisting.". Isn't "pain compliance tool" the same as "torture device"? Getting someone to do what you want using the application of pain isn't nice, especially if they're "passively resisting" (or having a "sit down protest" as it is also known) 195.153.45.54 15:37, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

"Pain compliance" would also be twisting your arm behind your back. Basically the police do pain complaince against people who resist arrest. I wouldn't call arresting someone "torture". If they arrest someone who is being passive (as in NOT resisting) and taser them anyway, you'd have a point. --TheCynic 02:45, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Deletion discussion

See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/University of Florida Taser incident. Badagnani 05:09, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] No Citations

All over the article things are stated without citations, needs either a flurry of citations are a massive cleanup. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.132.41.223 (talk) 19:33, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A massive cleanup is probably necessary. The Deaths and injury associated with electroshock weapon use section is particularly bad. I went through its claims a while back (while this article was still part of Electroshock weapon, e.g. this version). I noticed that there was borderline OR (counting which of the 73 cases described where the Taser was/was not a factor). Subsequent edits increased the overall date range and death count, but did not make clear that the details were for a different set of deaths. This is just a sample of the problems, in addition to the many uncited statements. Flatscan 04:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Specific incidents in See also only

As has been done with the UCLA Taser incident, the University of Florida Taser incident should have a See also link only, with no mention in the text. This prevents forking content. The paragraph here would be appropriate if the article is deleted or if it were relevant to a particular controversy. I intend to wait a while (a few weeks to a month) for things to settle down to see if deleting the paragraph is still appropriate. Flatscan 04:30, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Editing of University of Florida Taser incident has slowed significantly, and it appears to be in no danger of deletion. If there are no objections, I will delete its paragraph here shortly. Flatscan 02:25, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Removed paragraph. Flatscan 20:47, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] New Taser study

Study Suggests Taser Use By US Police Is Safe

  • Nearly 1000 cases of Taser use reviewed
  • 3 cases requiring hospital admittance (2 for head injuries resulting from falls, 1 "hospitalized two days after arrest with a condition 'of unclear relationship to the Taser'")
  • Amnesty International reviewing study, will have official comment (as reported by ABC News)

These results can be consistent with the "Taser-related" deaths tracked by Amnesty International if the number of Taser deployments is large, say roughly 1000+ deployments for each death.

I found this in a post on the New York Times blog The Lede. If one searches that blog for "taser", there are a number of results, including ones regarding the UCLA Taser incident and the University of Florida Taser incident. Flatscan 04:08, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Rename

The following discussion is archived. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

The result was move to Taser controversy. To be clear, the discussion did not conclude, but the recreation of Taser and the lack of ongoing discussion seemed to indicate consensus. I did the move yesterday (diff). Flatscan 19:32, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Anyone object to renaming this "Taser controversy?" The reason being that "Taser" is the most commonly known name for this thing, it's what other media call it, and what people are most likely to enter as a search term. Taser is a brand name, but it's one that is used synonymously with the product, like heroin and a host of other brand named products. (See Genericized trademark). bobanny (talk) 15:53, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

Has there been a court ruling that says that Taser has become genericised? Have Taser failed to protect their trademark? I ask because otherwise this name change could be misleading.—greenrd (talk) 18:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
I doubt it, and I didn't mean to imply its legal status by linking to that article. I imagine that the brand and product are colloquially synonymous because Taser International has a monopoly. How do you think changing the article name would mislead? Wikipedia is, after all, a popular/general, not legal, reference source. bobanny (talk) 20:39, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Searching for "Taser controversy" returns all relevant articles that I know of. "Taser" redirects to the relevant section of "Electroshock weapon". Not all of the sections are relevant to Tasers: the Torture section mainly describes conventional stun guns. I could see splitting "Taser" from "Electroshock weapon", but the split should come from there, not the related controversy article. Flatscan (talk) 05:07, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
IMO, the most commonly used name should trump the internal wiki-logic you're using, at least in this case. However, I don't see them as incompatible because the Electroshock weapon article describes a class of weapons of which the taser is only one, whereas I see only one sentence in this article that isn't about the taser. Seems to me that "the controversy" is the use of tasers by law enforcement and that the stun belt/torture issue is out of place, and would be better incorporated into the electroshock weapon article. Torture by whatever means is also controversial, but the context is so different. Also, almost all references in this article are to "taser," so it's inconsistent as it stands. I imagine "taser" will eventually be split off, but in the meantime, this would be - and pretty much is - a split from the taser section in that article, which I don't see as problematic. bobanny (talk) 10:04, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
The article should definitely be renamed. At present, the nondescript and somewhat misleading "electroshock weapon" title is little more than a WP:WEASEL answer to an article devoted entirely to the Taser gun incidents resulting from its excessive use, with only a brief mention of other means of electrocution. Once renamed, as per User:Bobanny, the article needs to be improved with proper lead section as per WP:MOS --Poeticbent talk 18:44, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
"Electroshock weapon controversy" was originally a section in Electroshock weapon that was split into a separate article due to its size (Talk section, diff). As I pointed out earlier, searches (both Wikipedia and Google) return this article, and it is well-linked from related articles - it's hardly obscure or hidden. I understand your concerns with the title, but WP:WEASEL is irrelevant. Flatscan (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree that there are shortcomings in the current article organization of Electroshock weapon, Electroshock weapon controversy. I suggest the following reorganization:

Flatscan (talk) 01:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It turns out that Shaliya waya has already started the split. Flatscan (talk) 01:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.


[edit] List of incidents

Recent edits added a list of publicized incidents in the Deaths and injury associated with electroshock weapon use section. The list includes the UCLA Taser incident and the University of Florida Taser incident, which both had the Taser used in "Drive Stun", a mode that carries zero risk of serious injury or death. They should be removed from the list, or the list should be moved out of its current section. Flatscan (talk) 17:45, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

I suggest changing the heading to "high profile incidents" or something like that, and maybe with a subheading for ones that involved injury or death. The high profile cases fuel the controversy regardless of injury or death, so it seems this is the place to lump them together. bobanny (talk) 18:08, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] UN statement

Article mentioning a UN statement that Taser use can be a form of torture, and listing c. 10 Taser deaths in North America in 1 week. Badagnani (talk) 09:06, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

That information has already been added. I partially reverted the initial insertion, due to an objection with how it was integrated into existing test. I then took a different approach and made an edit that included the new information. If my edit comments aren't clear, please ask me to clarify here.
Does anyone have a source that goes into more detail, particularly regarding the "reliable studies" that show that Tasers cause death in certain cases? I've tried to keep up-to-date with electroshock weapon (usually Taser) research, and I'm not aware of any conclusive findings. Flatscan (talk) 05:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yesterday: Jesse Saenz, Tasered 23 times and then died. Another Excited Delirium coincidence? Link = http://news.google.com/news?q=Jesse+Saenz

2005: "Coroner Mike Morris has ruled that the Taser caused [Maurice Cunningham's] death." Link = http://www.certops.com/certops/news/Oct060508.html

"Conclusions: Immediately after the discharge, two deaths [of test pigs, not humans] occurred because of ventricular fibrillation.", Acute Effects of TASER X26 Discharges in a Swine Model. Link = http://www.jtrauma.com/pt/re/jtrauma/abstract.00005373-200709000-00014.htm

Dr. Eugene Crystal, an electrophysiologist at Sunnybrook Hospital in Toronto, believes a Taser could cause arrhythmia. "The amount of energy Taser uses may cause the heart to contract inappropriately," he says.

See also http://truthnottasers.blogspot.com/ (tons of leads to additional information). They also count 310 deaths related to Taserings.

What many people fail to acknowledge is that: you take your victims as you find them. If you crack someone on the head and they happen to have a thin skull and die - well too bad for you. It is still your fault for cracking them on the head. As another example, if you design a "non-lethal" weapon and assume that everyone in the world is a fit, middle-age, test subject; but it turns out that many victims aren't quite so resistant to electroshocks - well too bad for you. Big mistake assuming that everyone is healthy and has a strong heart. You're still liable for making a dangerous product and not providing accurate and complete guidance.

The public in Canada are (mostly) outraged at the large number of deaths by Taser recently. The RCMP Watchdog issued a stern report (Kennedy Report) after the death of the Polish immigrant at Vancouver.

As with most things in recent years, YouTube is an important vehicle for getting the truth out.

JeffyPooh (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Content from Taser lead

  1. Flatscan moved content from Taser lead to Taser controversy lead.
  2. Swatjester undid the change to Taser controversy.
  3. Poeticbent moved content back to Taser as new Criticism section.

I propose that the new Criticism section in Taser be moved as a section to Taser controversy. Flatscan (talk) 18:49, 9 December 2007 (UTC) I propose that the new Criticism section in Taser be parted out into existing sections in Taser controversy. (As I should have done in the first place.) Flatscan (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Criticism section in Taser was long overdue with Taser controversy serving as a separate, supporting article. I agree with both editors though, that the lead of neither of these two articles was the right place for extended info. --Poeticbent talk 19:03, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
What do you think about a Controversy section in Taser with a {{main|Taser controversy}} template and a paragraph simply listing the various controversies? I would like to avoid forking content, and the Criticism section is fully represented (disputed lethality, unjustified use) in Taser controversy. Flatscan (talk) 19:30, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, that's far preferable. Either a paragraph or even no paragraph at all and a "main" template directing here. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't object to it being in this article. It just doesn't belong being in the lede. Also, it's important to remember that we need a neutral point of view, and not to provide undue weight to the anti-taser crowd. Piling on repetitious complaints that tasers can kill people, when we have quite enough sources and reports on that already, without providing counterbalancing points of view showing that tasers prevent other forms of submission i.e. batons and firearms, violates undue weight.
Furthermore, we need to pay strict attention to WHAT we're including here. Taser ≠ all kinds of electroshock devices. Tasers are a specific kind of ranged electroshock device. Stun baton criticisms, and stun belt criticisms, do not belong here. Criticisms of electroshock devices in general belong on the Electroshock device page. Criticisms of Tasers in particular belong here. Lets not lose sight of that.⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:32, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for your comments and clarifications. I think you meant WP:LEAD :) . I agree that the content is inappropriate for either article's lead. I thought that Taser controversy's lead was a "less bad" location. For a variety of reasons, Wikipedia often tends toward public opinion. Our reliable sources tend to be news articles, which are often sensationalized. I haven't looked carefully myself, but I've communicated with others who say that finding a positive article on Taser use is difficult.
No actually I meant lede (news) which is the correct term here. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 14:55, 10 December 2007 (UTC)
The content regarding electroshock weapons in general is a vestige of its life as Electroshock weapon controversy. I'll try to watch out for new content that should be moved. Flatscan (talk) 20:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I believe Taser article, like any article, has to explain both sides of the story for balance, represented with due weight only if there is a mention of both, the intended use, as well as the resulting criticism based in facts. Supplementary material however could be reorganized, for example, the new Criticism section could be expanded with calls for moratorium, which are mentioned briefly in different sections right now. I’d like to look into that. --Poeticbent talk 20:10, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
As Rachelskit mentions in Talk:Taser#Suggested merge with Taser controversy, the Taser article should be limited to factual descriptions of the device and its use. If an included point is disputed, it can be countered briefly. For example, Tasers are marketed as less-lethal weapons — one sentence indicating that its lethality is disputed. If a paragraph describing how the Taser disrupts neuromuscular function by design is added as part of a Principles of operation section, a sentence or two regarding how it may stimulate heart tissue can be added, with details going into Taser controversy. Flatscan (talk) 20:33, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] University of Florida Taser incident

As you might expect, the above article was written as news of the event occured. Now that some time has passed, it has been proposed that the article be reworked (rewritten) to give it some historical context... to summarize the event itself and slightly shift focus to its "after the event" impact (ie to make the article less "old news" and more "encyclopedic"). This shift of focus fits nicely with this article. I would ask that some of the editors who are involved here join us in rewriting the University of Florida Taser incident article. Blueboar (talk) 01:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Worldwide view

Seems only to become internationally-orientated towards the very end of the article; the rest is about the United States. --78.151.155.177 (talk) 22:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

The article seems balanced enough to me, with Canadian as well as European references throughout. --Poeticbent talk 19:36, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Organization of studies

I suggest renaming the Recognized risks section to Safety, and adding a Studies subsection.

Example studies:

I think it's unnecessary to have subsubsections for experimental and non-experimental. Flatscan (talk) 18:50, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I made the changes suggested (rename section, add subsection) and moved a few paragraphs from Taser. Flatscan (talk) 00:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Studies' funding

While I was reviewing the Lakkireddy study, I noticed that it was funded by a grant from Taser International. Research funded by Taser has been criticized for potential conflicts of interest. The Arizona Republic ran a exposé on Taser that may include criticisms of specific studies (brief discussion at Talk:Taser#Taser studies). I think the COI issues should definitely be mentioned, but I am uncertain about how the individual studies should be marked.

Possibilities:

  1. Place all Taser-funded studies in their own section.
  2. Use footnotes to mark each study with its funding source, either omitting or including "unknown". Can be implemented with separate funding-only named refs or by adding to the existing citations.
  3. Mark only studies that have been the targets of specific COI-related criticism, such as those covered by the Arizona Republic.

My preference is 2, omitting unknowns which would generally be due to no access to the full study. Flatscan (talk) 01:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Refs for paragraph in Recognised risks

Section: Taser controversy#Recognised risks

I removed refs to a blog, per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Self-published sources (online and paper), and restored the {{Fact}} tags. The refs were originally added by Poeticbent on November 30, 2007.

Claims Over Tasers’ Safety Challenged, Sudden Taser Death Syndrome

I followed the blog's link to a New York Times article, which is a reliable source, but does not directly support the paragraph as currently worded.

"Claims Over Tasers' Safety Are Challenged", New York Times, November 26, 2004.

It is assumed that tasers as well as all other high voltage stun devices can cause cardiac arrhythmia in susceptible subjects, possibly leading to heart attack or death in minutes by ventricular fibrillation (which leads to cardiac arrest and if not treated immediately to sudden death). People susceptible to this outcome are sometimes healthy and unaware of their susceptibility.

I think the "it is assumed that tasers ... can cause" wording should be made more precise. Scientific studies have shown that Tasers can induce ventricular fibrillation in pigs in specific circumstances. A quotation from a doctor or scientist saying what these studies mean for humans would be appropriate. Flatscan (talk) 18:49, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Relative Risks

It seems to me that there should be a discussion of (or at least acknowledgement of the existence of) a balance of risks in deploying an non-lethal/less-lethal weapons, and that that discussion should be reflected on this page:

  • Is it riskier for the person it's being used on than the other non-lethal methods (batons, physical restraint)?
  • What about the balance of risks for the users - e.g. police officers are required to risk their health every day when encountering unknown situations; if sometimes they use a taser to reduce that risk, is that justified?
  • To what extent do the public (in the US, or in general) have a right to obstruct or be non-compliant with police instructions? Are the police required to have an infinite amount of patience? Is this realistic?
  • The number of deaths 'attributed to' tasers is a highly political issue. If a drunk or drugged person puts themselves in a position where they end up being tased (whether or not it's a 'justified' tasing), there's a degree of contributory negligence that shouldn't be ignored. As tasing seems to very rarely be the direct cause of death, we're talking about individuals increasing the risk involved in tasing by their own behavior (the risk of death seems to change from very, very small to very small).

I'd be surprised if there are statistics or research for most of these questions - but isn't it important to mention the issues? Otherwise, the whole discussion boils down to 'tasers sometimes kill people and don't seem to reduce the police's use of lethal force, so they should be banned'. It doesn't seem that clear cut to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cerireid (talk • contribs) 21:32, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that I've seen some of these issues discussed in TASER International literature; I'll look into it. As you note, there may be difficulty finding reliable sources. I would hesitate to add unsourced information, especially that which promotes or rationalizes either POV side. Flatscan (talk) 01:47, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Walter E. Haake Jr.

Article used as ref Follow-up article

An April 3 Capital-Journal article elaborates some details, including why the deputies were involved: "An AMR supervisor said Haake was in need of medical attention, Barta said, and asked deputies to intervene by removing Haake from the vehicle."[1] Flatscan (talk) 18:22, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

OK? I'm not sure what the point of that is. ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 18:28, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
I included the excerpt in response to comments at the articles that questioned why the deputies were interacting with Haake in the first place. An editor may have similar questions – I wondered why medical personnel hadn't handled the situation. Flatscan (talk) 19:10, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, but why here? Why not include the excerpt in the article instead? ⇒SWATJester Son of the Defender 19:16, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The coroner released a statement based on preliminary findings. The statement did not mention the Taser as a cause of death: "The cause of death is of cardiac nature, with contribution by compression of the torso".[2][3] I've been checking for a final report, but I haven't found any sources. Considering this finding, is this incident notable to this article? Flatscan (talk) 01:24, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Still no final coroner's report, and little news coverage. I will remove this incident from the article if no objections are raised. Flatscan (talk) 16:28, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed Haake from the article. The removed text can be extracted from the diff, if necessary. Flatscan (talk) 01:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Use of taser by transit police

I recently heard (Apr. 15/08) that Vancouver SkyTrain transit police have used the taser on fare dodgers. Here is the link:

Reference article Devrit (talk) 02:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] 10-year old receives taser threat from police

That's a scary thought, but it's true. Read the story:

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/ottawa/story/2008/04/16/boy-handcuffs.html

Thanx BOB WAS NOT HERE! (Devrit) 02:40, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

For some reason, when I linked the website above, it would get a HTTP 404 error. So, please paste it into your address bar for access. If that still doesn't work, google "10-year old taser", and click on the link with a www.cbc.ca URL. Thanx

BOB WAS NOT HERE! (Devrit) 04:52, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pacemaker, implantable cardioverter-defibrillator (Lakkireddy) study

On the first paragraph of the "recognized risks": a study based on a single animal has no statistical meaning more than afirming that characteristcs for a single animal can be extrapoled to all the cases, therefore, this study has no place. Insertformulahere —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.125.97.102 (talk) 04:33, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

The study focused on the effects of the Taser discharge on the implanted devices. The single test animal (pig) was part of the in vivo testing environment, not a test subject. The study tested 9 pacemakers and 7 implantable cardioverter-defibrillators.

A single animal was used to test all the devices and this may limit the assessment of the effect of biological variations on the reproducibility of our findings. However, the animal used in this study served as a biological 'platform' for the testing. It is unlikely that such variation among animals is of sufficient magnitude to justify the use of multiple animals to assess this potential biologic variability.

I disagree with deleting the study, and I will revert. That a single animal was used as the "swine model" is not mentioned in the study's abstract. I think that mentioning it in the article, especially without explanation, is misleading. Flatscan (talk) 02:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Taser manufacturers supress risks with tasers

A lawsuit by the makers of Taser stun guns has prompted an Ohio court to order a chief medical examiner to delete any reference to the use of a stun gun as a contributing factor in the deaths of three men, a move rebuked as "dangerously close to intimidation" by the National Association of Medical Examiners. This ref should IMO be intergrated in the text. [4] MaxPont (talk) 05:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

In the current organization, I think it would fit best in TASER International#Criticism. It would probably be best to merge that section into this article, but I haven't given it much thought. Flatscan (talk) 03:44, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Related discussion at Taser

Editors may be interested in commenting at Talk:Taser#RFC:_Criticism on the relationship between this article and the main Taser article. Reggie Perrin (talk) 03:57, 21 May 2008 (UTC)