Talk:Tammuz (deity)

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Contents 1 Somewhere an account 2 Days of mourning 2.1 Tamuz will be later adopted in Judaic and Islamic traditions 2.2 Kuratowski's Ghost are you really stubborn ? 3 Just telling the story 4 Details? 5 "weeping for Tammuz" 6 Tamil connection 7 Life-Death Deity or Not

[edit] Somewhere an account

Somewhere I read an ancient writer (sailing into port?) describing some of the visual ritual of Tammuz during his time of mourning. It would give some life to this entry. Help? My old notes are a mess. Charlie Turek magician charlesturek@comcast.net 11 Nov 04

Too late now, but Charlie is recalling Robert Graves' interpretation of the "Great Pan is dead" cry heard from shipboard, recounted by Plutarch. See Pan.

[edit] Days of mourning

I have removed the paragraphs that attempt to imply a link between Muslim and Jewish days of mourning with ancient mourning practices related to Tammuz. In both case the days of mourning were introduced as a result of known historical events having absolutely nothing to do with Tammuz. The Islamic practice arose centuries after Tammuz worship has disappeared and the Jewish practice was instituted by people well aware and totally opposed to Tammuz worship so to suggest that there is a link is a crackpot POV not supported by legitimate scholarship. Kuratowski's Ghost 15:38, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

A brief reference to mourning for Tammuz, mentioning other unconnected days of Ancient Near eastern mourning needs to be returned to this article. --Wetman 23:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tamuz will be later adopted in Judaic and Islamic traditions

Tamuz sumerian name was Dumu-zid which means the "good child".
His akkadian name was Tamuz.
He was the King-God of the city Bad-tibira, of stables, milk and fertility.
After his death, his sister Geshtinanna cried and lamented days and nights.
The lamentations were written in the babylonian religion.
Judaic religion will retake those lamentations tradition.
note : the comments from the user "Kuratowski's Ghost" are very dangerous because he is refusing scientific facts and to read the traductions of the tablets. He removed VERY important paragraphs about jewish religion and links with Tammuz. The babylonians tablets traductions show that Geshtinanna lamented when Dumuzid died. And Inanna went to the underworld to try to save him. Thats scientific facts and the user "Kuratowski's Ghost" doesnt have the right to delete them in the wikipedia.
The given link is surely not a crackpot POV like user "Kuratowski's Ghost" is writing, it is correct : the jewish religion and calendar is DIRECTLY coming from the babylonian religion. The only difference is the name of the old gods was replaced with only one : YWHW . Denying this is denying science, and thats what the user "Kuratowski's Ghost" did.
Traduction of the babylonian tablet : http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/cgi-bin/etcslmac.cgi?text=t.1.4.4
Extract :
"She can make the lament for you, my Dumuzid, the lament for you, the lament, the lamentation, reach the desert -- she can make it reach the house Arali; she can make it reach Bad-tibira; she can make it reach Dul-šuba; she can make it reach the shepherding country, the sheepfold of Dumuzid "
"O Dumuzid of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully, "O you of the fair-spoken mouth, of the ever kind eyes," she sobs tearfully. "Lad, husband, lord, sweet as the date, …… O Dumuzid!" she sobs, she sobs tearfully.
etc.

The Hebrew calendar does come from the Babylonian calendar but to suggest that days of mourning commemorating events that have absolutely nothing to do with Tammuz are really derived from Tammuz worship is cranky. Wikipedia articles are not for presenting cranky POV. Kuratowski's Ghost 16:22, 9 Jan 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Kuratowski's Ghost are you really stubborn ?

Tammuz was the brother of Geshtinanna.
The lover of Tammuz was Ishtar.
When he died, she cried and lamented days and nights.
Ishtar went to the underworld to bring Tammuz back to life.
After their death, they were divinized by the sumerians and then babylonians.
Many many Baylonian rites still survived even when Abraham brought the new religion to his semitic tribes. (like the golden Calf, the calendar based on the moon, Ishtar cult etc.)
That's the origin of the hebraic lamentations.
Ask that to rabbins or assyrologues, they know all that.
And that's why Tammuz is "evil" for the jewish religion because his cult is very ancient and goes back to sumerian days.

Kuratowski's Ghos, you are denying historical facts.

And you are a raving lunatic Kuratowski's Ghost 20:55, 5 Feb 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Just telling the story

Wouldn't the narrative be improved if it could be told with closer attention to the recently reconstituted texts, with less smirking? --Wetman 15:00, 24 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Details?

The An older interpretion doesn't have enough detail. What is the "older" interpretation? What are these texts? Where were they found? -Tydaj 21:46, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

It's better now, but needs further expanding. --Wetman 23:13, 10 July 2005 (UTC)

I cleared up some of the meanings - but, it still lacks any real information... smIsle 05:48, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "weeping for Tammuz"

An anonymous editor made the following irrelevant edits (bolded): "there sat women weeping for the Tammuz (alternatley "Getting the Tammuz to weep" acc. to traditional hebrew reading of the vowels in "MiVaChoT EhT Hatamuz"). Even I know that by mispointing it, any passage in Hebrew may be rendered meaningless, or given a subtle new connotation. For instance the vowels of bosheth "shameful" can render Moloch as Molech. See the etymology of Beelzebub. And "the" does not exist in the original: is it being added here to give credibility to this "traditional" misreading? This intrusion does not assist the reader in understanding Tammuz, subject of the entry, the god for whom the women were weeping. --Wetman 21:10, 10 August 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Tamil connection

Is there any substantiation whatsoever for the supposed Tamil connection mentioned here? 71.82.214.160 06:59, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I HIGHLY doubt it. The zh in Tamizh is merely a orthographic convention used to represent a liquid l sound, which is absent in Indo-European languages (like English) and in Semitic languages and nowhere close to the way Tammuz is pronounced. This is just wishful thinking based on the similiarity of the words WHEN written in English

[edit] Life-Death Deity or Not

Just compare these two excerpts from the article:

Readers in four-season temperate cultures may doubt the god as a vegetation god, through misconstruing this seasonal timing, or wishfully see in him a life-death-rebirth deity. "He was no dying and resurrecting vegetation demon, as James George Frazer wanted him to be (for one thing no vegetation demon dies in the spring, in April)," Miroslav Marcovich observed.[2] More to the point, tablets discovered in 1963 show that Dumuzi was in fact consigned to the Underworld himself, in order to secure Inanna's release.

Dumuzid/Tammuz being the god of the vegetation cycle, this corresponds to the changing of the seasons as the abundance of the earth diminishes in his absence. He is a life-death-rebirth deity.

either he's a life-death-rebirth deity or not - choose one or at least address the conflict!!

smIsle 05:31, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

There is also an inherent contradiction here on the one side saying that Tammuz is a vegetation deity and another saying he is not. There is also some erroneous conclusions in saying that a vegetation deity precludes the concept of 'rebirth', when it is the 'rebirth' of the vegetation that is inferred. The assumption that if a god goes to the Underworld he does not return from it is a little strange considering that even Jesus is said to have visited hades and it did not preclude him rising. Add to that the erroneous assumption that 'no vegetation demon (sic)dies in spring' shows little knowledge of ancient cults in which the grain being buried in the spring planting festival was considered to be the body of the God being buried in the ground. The Osirian Festival, the Khoiak, on which there is ample research is a case in point. That Osiris and Tammuz are associated by many scholars (read what is coming out about them in the Oxford Journals) doesn't make this irrelevant to Tammuz. Osiris died the double death: in spring as the planted corn buried in the earth and in summer as the heat of the desert withered the vegetation (Set, Osiris' brother and murderer being the hot winds from the desert personified).