Talk:Tadeusz Kościuszko

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WikiProject Echo has identified Tadeusz Kościuszko as a foreign language featured article. It is thought that everything has been translated from the Polish language Wikipedia as of 2005-07-28, but this English version has not yet passed the nomination process.

Contents 1 Polish 2 Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence 3 Moved from the article page 4 Belarusian/Polish 5 PD phot0 6 KOSCIUSKO, TEXAS 7 Unencyclopedic 8 Move 9 International Hero

[edit] Polish

The Polish article has him born on February 4, 1746. The day of the month could be Julian/Gregorian calendar discrepancy, but the year...? (Disclaimer: I don't read Polish but a handful of words.) --Brion 11:19 Oct 26, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Jefferson and the Declaration of Independence

The article states that Kosciusko sought out Jefferson because he admired his authorship of the Declaration of Independence. To my knowledge Jefferson's authorship was kept secret until a later time, making this very unlikely. Jefferson was identified strongly with this and other revolutionary documents at the time however, and had no small public image, so the fact that Kosciusko would want to meet him is not surprising in itself. Small point, but I believe important. Windthorst 20:49, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Moved from the article page

The following was moved from the article page by your's truly. I believe that the following could be included into the article, bud definitely not the way User:Nikhilajain did it.

Kosciusko, Thaddeus (kŏs´´ēŭs´kō) , Pol. Tadeusz Andrzej Bonawentura Košciuszko, 1746—1817, Polish general. Trained in military academies in Warsaw and Paris, he offered his services to the colonists in the American Revolution because of his commitment to the ideal of liberty. Arriving in America in 1777, he took part in the Saratoga campaign and advised Horatio Gates to fortify Bemis Heights. Later he fortified (1778) West Point and fought (1780) with distinction under Gen. Nathanael Greene in the Carolina campaign. After his return to Poland he became a champion of Polish independence. He fought (1792—93) in the campaign that resulted in the second partition (1793) of Poland (see Poland, partitions of). In 1794 he issued a call at Kraków for a national uprising and led the Polish forces against both Russians and Prussians in a gallant but unsuccessful rebellion that ended with the final partition of Poland. He was imprisoned, and after being freed (1796) went to the United States and later (1798) to France, where after the fall of Napoleon he pleaded with Alexander I of Russia for Polish independence. He died in Solothurn, Switzerland, and is buried in Kraków. His devotion to liberty and Polish independence have made him one of the great Polish heroes.

See studies by M. Haiman (1943, repr. 1975 and 1946, repr. 1977).

[edit] Belarusian/Polish

Was Ignacy Domeyko Polish or Belarusian? Please join the discussion that is relevant to all of the famous Polish-speaking personalities who were born in 18th-19th century on the territories of what is now Belarus, and what was Great Litva back then. Talk:Ignacy Domeyko. --rydel 23:59, 7 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Removed Bialorussian. Sorry this is just plain wrong. i Dont't want to hurt any national feelings, but kosciuszko was 100 % pole. his familiy was polonised since since severeal hundred years, and probably intermarried with other polish families. he spoke polish, he fought for poland. bialorussion did not exist back then. he would have never considered himself a biorussian. its like saying that germans who were born in silesia were no germans because there ancestors were germanized slavs. sorry, but its just stupid.

Witkacy removed this from the article - while I don't think it is very imporant, it may be useful: --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Talk 12:15, 28 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It is especi lly important to note that three nations (Lithuania, Belarus, and Poland) presently claim Thaddeus Kosciusko to be of their nation. Research has shown that the Kosciusko Family was of a mixed Lithuanian (Baltic/non-Slavic/Catholic) and Ruthenian (Eastern Slavic/Orthodox/modern-day Belarussian) ancestry. Many tend to confuse him as a Polish (Western Slav/Catholic) because he was Catholic (from his Baltic-Lithuanian ancestry) and Slavic (through his Belarussian ancestry). He was Polish in the sense that he came from the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. During that period all people from the Commonwealth were called "Polish". While abroad, most citizens from the Commonwealth would call themselves "Polish Citizens", but would also note whether they were of Poland, "the Kingdom", (signifying that one was ethnic Polish), of Lithuania, "the Grand Duchy", (signifying that one is Ethnic Lithuanian or Belarussian). In the Untied States Library of Congress, a letter from Kosciusko states specifically that he is from Poland, but of Lithuanian nationality. In general, many families from the region of his birth are from mixed Lithuanian (Baltic) and Belarussian families. The first families were Baltic-Lithuanians (non-Slavic), who later intermarried with the Eastern Slavic (Belarussian) clans who began to occupy the same territory. Many of today's modern Belarussians (People from the modern Belarus, Republic of) are neither wholly Slavic or Baltic, but a mixture of the two, similar to what Thaddeus would have been considered.

Agree with you. It's a big mistake to call him only pole because he spoke polish. Is english speaking irishman - englisman? Or is english speaking scotsman - englishman? No. The memory of common history, knowledge of being from country (this case Grand Duchy of Lithuanian), makes him more Lithuanian/Ruthenian(Belorusan), than polish. (remember his ethnic origin too). --egisz, 24 may, 2008 —Preceding comment was added at 10:44, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] PD phot0

http://www.usma.edu/Tour/Monument_img.asp --evrik 21:09, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

---

Of course Kosciuszko was of ruthenian/rusin (NOT russian) descent! His name suggests that! But he was a citizen of the commonwealth, he was szlachta which was a specific state of people who had their own mythology and traditions. The Commonwealth was a multinational country and many people who had non polish roots considered themselves SZLACHTA and therefore part of the Polish culture which was it's main component (others include Turkic (especially) , Lithuanian, Latin and Ruthenian culture which formed the metling pot). Hence Kościuszko was a Pole in the SZLACHTA sense just like Radziwills (sorry Lithuanian friends for the Polish spelling), who polonised in the 16th century, Wisniowieccy, a very powerful ruthenian clan and maaaany others. They where SZLACHTA, gentry, nobility, aristocracy and they had a strong tie to the SZLACHTA culture which came out of Poland. City dwellers, jews and peasants did not feel this tie that's why after the fall of the commonwealth Lithuanian could be reconstructed by Tadeusz Wróblewski because the local peasants still spoke it (and quite interestingly it was an archaic form from the medieval. Wróblewski obviously himself was SZLACHTA and spoke Polish even though he lived in Lithuania.

Also let me point out the names of some prominent polish politicians in recent years : Miller, Hausner, Huebner, also check out the wiki-article on John Albert Habsburg who was a polish soldier during WW2. "Poland" was a melting pot of many cultures and many ethnicities that were tied by a common grand culture (Sarmatianism, "polish" baroque). In the cities most were Germans or Jews, peasants only felt local ties and only were the subjects of the king and the gentry was very diverse! Potocki , Koniecpolski were medieval polish families... Radziwills came out of Lithuania, Wisniowieccy, Glinscy, Ostrogscy, Sapieha were Ruthenians (actually most magnate families were ruthenian). I guess you could compare it to the situation in the US.

The important question is when did the modern polish nation form? In the XIXth century. The culture and feeling of a grand national tie started applying to the peasantry (80% of the populace)... Mostly thanks to literature... What was the link between a Poznan city shopkeeper under the prussian partition and a farmer in western ukraine? Mickiewicz, Sienkiewicz, the myths and pathos of national uprisings. Also the XIXth century is the time of revival of Lithuanian nation which has the same roots but grew different branches.

btw the great polish researcher Joachim Lelewel is a national hero in Belgium where he fled to after the 1831 uprising. The Belgians treat him as his own.

[edit] KOSCIUSKO, TEXAS

belongs in Things and places section http://www.tsha.utexas.edu/handbook/online/articles/KK/hlk13.html

[edit] Unencyclopedic

His descendants are still among us and honor him to this day.

This is bad style. Wikipedia is supposed to sound objective - first person pronouns (who is "us"?) and a reverential-poetic tone are absolutely unsuitable. Also, I suppose not only the man's descendants honour him?! So the only remaining relevant info is that he has living descendants. I'm not sure if this is so important, a lot of notable people do. The sentence might as well be removed altogether. --91.148.159.4 00:19, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Where are all the sources for this article? If this guy is so great there should be loads of other sites who can back up. There are a number of sentences which make some pretty black and white statements abouthow everyone thinks he is aweseom and perfect; it doesn't strike me as terribly objective. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.234.4.10 (talk) 10:54, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Move

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it to be moved.

[edit] International Hero

Out of curiosity, is Kosciuszko really famous in Belarus and Lithuania? To what extent is he regarded as a national hero in those countries? I am especially interested in opinions of Belarusian contributors, as Kosciuszko fought against Russia, and current government in Minsk is rather pro-Russian as I presume. Thanks in advance. Tymek (talk) 18:31, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the current government in Belarus has very little to do with the issues that are concerning you, Tymek. And inspite of your presumptions, I don't think the Russian people are particularly anti-Kosciuszko either. Dr. Dan (talk) 20:37, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Dr Dan for joining the discussion, even though you have nothing to say about the issue. Still, I am just curious, and perhaps somebody familiar with the subject might answer. I am not denying Kosciszko's being a hero in Belarus and Lithuania, I just want to know what is his status as a hero of these nations. Tymek (talk) 22:24, 20 March 2008 (UTC)