Talk:Synthetic oil

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What is the impact of synthetic oil to PVC product, especially in the PVC pipe?

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[edit] Suggest merger

this page should be merged with motor oil. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.92.15.111 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

sounds like a bad idea to me -- Solipsist 09:16, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Mobil 1 formula

–Some chimp is revising this article to state that "Mobil 1 contains 5% polyalphaolefin".

- it depends on which Mobil 1 formula is being discussed; the regular line, the Extended Performance, one of the motorcycle oils, or one of the diesel forumlas, and which continent and country is being discussed. A blanket statement is erroneous on its face.

- someone posted speculation on why it was changed. It was changed because it was erroneous.

Eblem 01:06, 22 December 2006 (UTC) —

Please refrain from personal attacks. --Petri Krohn 02:05, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
There appear to be a number of individuals defacing various Wikipedia pages with allegations about ExxonMobil and some of its products.
This is an encyclopedia entry.
Those who want to sound off pro or con products have other fora in which to do that.
eblem
I may be reached at eble_m@yahoo.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by Eblem (talk • contribs) 18:18, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Formula Change Sensitivity

(moved this comment by User:66.92.15.111 here from article. -- Petri Krohn 02:03, 22 December 2006 (UTC))
Apparently, Mobil have some sensitivity to their public MSDS information being linked on Wikipedia apparently because "the url purporting to show Mobil 1 containg 5% PAO does not support the claim". One would think that public MSDS would be accurate. If alternative formulations for different grades exist, then explanatory linkage needs to be provided, not all linkage deleted.
I looked at your MSDS and it did not support what you claim it supported.
In addition, Exxon Mobil sells at least five lines each of Mobil 1 products in Europe, Asia, and North America from motorcycle oils, including 2 cycle, to diesel, and multiple lines of automotive motor oils.
Are you of the opinion that an MSDS for one viscosity of one product line in one country is applicable to all the lines of all the products in all the markets?
If so, I can easily dispel you of that misconception.
--Eblem 01:39, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy

In 2006, the results of a gas chromatography test on Mobil 1 5w-30 EP were posted by an industry expert on the popular motor oil discussion website BITOG. It showed the oil to be primarily composed of a less expensive, Group III processed mineral oil. Until this time, Mobil 1 was believed to be a true synthetic, utilizing a Group IV (PAO) basestock. The release of this information has led to a backlash against ExxonMobil's lubricant products in many automotive communities. Ironically, in 1999, Mobil fought Castrol's change in formulation to a Group III basestock in motor oils being marketed as fully synthetic. Mobil claimed that Castrol was decieving their customer base, while degrading their products. The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus eventually ruled that Castrol could continue to market their Syntec line as a fully synthetic motor oil. ExxonMobil currently refuses to comment on the primary basestock of their Mobil 1 series of oils. This has only added further confusion over the exact definition of the term "synthetic oil." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.144.207.17 (talk • contribs) 19:22, 12 February 2007

[edit] Mobil fought Castrol

With trepidation I point out that there is no evidence that "In 1999, Mobil fought Castrol's change in formulation to a Group III basestock in motor oils being marketed as fully synthetic."

This line is verbatim from a post at "www.bobistheoilguy.com", where there is an ongoing movement among non-tribologists to rehash long-settled matters, such as the marketing of Group III synthesized motor oils as "synthetic" in North America, based on rumor and old wives' tales.

The National Advertising Division of the Council of Better Business Bureaus

[1]

does not conduct "trials" and there is no adversarial proceedings. It will consider matters of general interest to the public about the fairness of advertising and related matters. In two cases:

3035 08/01/1993 CASTROL, INC. /Castrola Syntec Motor Oil

3526 03/01/1999 CASTROL, INC. /Castrol Syntec Synthetic Motor Oil

it addressed matters of general interest to consumers of motor oils, neither of which involved anything like "Mobil claimed that Castrol was decieving their customer base, while degrading their products.", and concluded that the Group III base stock - which was constructed by removing waxes, combining aromatics into longer chain molecules, and adding hydrogen atoms to the result - were "synthetic". Castrol, Valvoline (Ashland Refining), Pennzoil, Quaker State, Havoline, and others all have made and sold synthetic motor oils, advertised and sold legally in the US and Canada, for at least the last ten years.

Thus, the statement "This has only added further confusion over the exact definition of the term "synthetic oil." is patently false, since in the US and Canada that has been authoritatively settled for a decade.

The statement that "ExxonMobil currently refuses to comment on the primary basestock of their Mobil 1 series of oils." is both knowingly false and misleading. For example, from the very source of all this misinformation, www.bobistheoilguy.com, we can read ExxonMobil's:

[2]

"To meet the demanding requirements of today's specifications (and our customers' expectations) Mobil 1 uses high-performance synthetic fluids, including polyalphaolefins (PAO), along with a proprietary system of additives. In fact, each Mobil 1 viscosity grade uses a specific combination of synthetic fluids and selected additives in order to tailor the viscosity grade to its unique requirement."

The refusal, apparently, consists of ExxonMobil's refusal - consistent with industry-wide practice - to provide the exact make-up of base stocks, blend stocks, and additives of various products.

The statement "In 2006, the results of a gas chromatography test on Mobil 1 5w-30 EP were posted by an industry expert on the popular motor oil discussion website BITOG." is also false, and the long battle over the complete lack of any test results, readings, graphs, or other data and the ongoing attempt of one participant to obtain an actual verifiable gas chromatography test can be found at the website in question, www.bobistheoilguy.com, for anyone willing to spend about four hours reading tendacious, tedious, unprofessional rantings.

The statement "Until this time, Mobil 1 was believed to be a true synthetic, utilizing a Group IV (PAO) basestock." is also unmitigated gibberish.

ExxonMobil has, to my knowledge, only advertised in the US and Canada two motor oils as being specifically primarily API Group IV (polyalphaolefin): its 10W-40 and 20W-50 motorcycle oils. Its other products have been for several years various blends of polyalphaolefin, polyolester, diester, alkylated napthlenes, esterized waxes, esterized vegetable oils, trace mineral oils, and a host of proprietary additives.

The "backlash against ExxonMobil's lubricant products in many automotive communities" consists of this false, misleading, unsupported, mendacious, scurrilous material being inserted in what should be a reference-quality encyclopedia entry by someone with apparently no knowledge whatsoever of either the history of synthetic oil or the accepted practices in the industry.

Because I am simultaneously dealing with "intgr" and "Petri Krohn" and other well-meaning but apparently ignorant Wikipediasts who apparently can't tell a fact from a fig, I will refrain from removing this tripe pending some additional discussions.

--Eblem 01:31, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] POV

The article is laughably POV, with exhortations to the reader to think about the benefits of synthetic oil! I don't know enough to correct it, but I hope someone will. —JerryFriedman 18:56, 18 May 2007 (UTC)


Agreed. It is apparent that the author favors synthetic oils, as seen through the simple statements exhorting the benefits while explaning away many of the disadvantages. That said, however, there is nothing within the advantages or disadvantages that is inherently wrong. Automotive manufacturers and professional engine builders have cautioned against the use of synthetic oils during the critical break-in period for piston engines as the lubrication and anti-shear properties lengthen or prevent proper wear-in of the piston rings. A bottle of synthetic oil will generally cost you 2 to 3 times more than a bottle of regular old 10W40 dinosaur juice, depending on the manufacturers.

Another disadvantage not mentioned is the use of synthetics in severely worn engines that have not been properly or adequately maintained. As synthetic oils have superior lubrication properties, their use can actually clean out some of the sludge and build-up that has taken place in worn engines. In many cases this build-up is what is keeping the various gap tolerences within the engine's rotating assembly at acceptable levels. By running synthetic (after, say, 150,000 very hard and ill-maintained miles) it can begin to clean out this build-up, increasing the gaps in bearing clearances, on cylinder sidewalls, and in the valve train. The engine may become noisier and wear down faster due to the increased clearances. The engine may also begin to burn oil as the loss of the build-up facilitates oil loss through the valve assembly and piston rings. On the up side, though, this clean-out can open up oil passages, facilitating increased oil supply.

On a final note, the use of fully synthetic oils is highly encouraged in high performance turbocharged engines. Turbos are both lubricated and cooled by the engine's oiling system, and turbos generate an enormous amount of heat. In normal street applications (read OEM and mild daily driven), regular oil will more than suffice. However, as one increases the power output, demands, or frequency of use of the turbo, this added heat can cause accelerated break-down of engine oil. The oil can begin to burn inside the turbo, leaving damaging crystaline carbon deposits inside the turbine and bearings, causing turbo failure over time. Synthetic oils are much more resistant to thermal breakdown and their lubrication properties will aid in maximizing the life of the turbo.

132.20.251.4 23:52, 20 June 2007 (UTC)

Synthetic oil is categorically better than conventional oil, therefore you decide to cry POV. Give it a rest. --Haizum μολὼν λαβέ 11:12, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Many vehicle manufacturers specify synthetic motor oils."

I doubt the statement, "Many vehicle manufacturers specify synthetic motor oils." I can not find the text of the referenced manufacturer specifications, citations needed.

Expect when the truth is known the referenced manufacturer specifications say nothing about "synthetic", no matter that nothing other than synthetic motor oils may have passed their specifications. N4hhe 21:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Mercedes-Benz recommends synthetic motor oils for their automobiles. A call to any dealer will confirm this fact.

Under Required applications this item appears to be incorrect: "MB 229.5 ( (4G63 engine)" - 229.5 is the correct Mercedes-Benz specification for synthetic motor oil as called for in the owner's manual, however 4G63 is the designation for a Mitsubishi four cylinder engine, and does not designate any Mercedes-Benz engine —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.8.150.33 (talk) 04:38, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I drive a 2005 Chrysler 300C, equipped with a Hemi...The owners' manual does not specify synthetic oil. It says synthetic oil may be used. The dealer only puts synthetic in on request. <brett> —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.81.193.106 (talk) 23:21, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

We should probably fix this section up. I noticed that the Mercury Grand Marquis 2002+ was listed as taking synthetic, noting that it takes 5W20. It uses the Ford modular 4.6L V8, so if that engine needed synthetic, MOST police cars in the US would be forced to run synthetic, which is not the case; ask any fleet manager. While it's technically true that many 5W20 oils are synthetic blends by the standards of the 1990s, that's stretching things. By that standard, many 'normal' oils qualify as synthetic blends, and you might as well say that most oils are synthetic oils, which would be confusing and somewhat deceptive. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.185.167.168 (talk) 01:38, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Many unattributed "facts"

Many of the statements about "drawbacks of synthetic oil" are controversial, insofar as they are vigorously disputed by the vendors of these synthetic oils on their own web sites and there are no citations or attributions on this page that would lend veracity to the listed drawbacks (with one exception). We should at the very least cite the vendor's statement regarding these unattributed "drawbacks", if not just eliminate them entirely where there is dispute over their validity. (Which means entirely eliminating pretty much everything except the "cost" and the "no benefit in taxicab use" drawbacks, where the former can be validated from various sources and the latter already has a citation).

The same applies to listed "advantages". In some cases we can cite oil company literature regarding these advantages, but they should be attributed to their correct source, not just listed as if we had a direct line to whatever deity we individually happen to worship.

In addition, most of the facts in this web page are not applicable to current oils sold as "synthetic" oil in the United States, which are Group III oils which basically are, well, processed dinosaur juice pumped out of the ground, not manufactured substances built out of other molecules (the exceptions being small specialty vendors such as Amsoil and Red Line selling Group IV or Group V oils basically via mail order). In general this page is about ten years out of date and applies to a time when Group IV / Group V oils were the only synthetics sold in stores in the United States, and is not applicable to any oils currently sold as "synthetic" in any department store, discount store, or auto parts chain store in the United States, thus is misleading to the typical U.S. citizen attempting to find information regarding what is sold as synthetic oils here. Wikipedia pages should not be Euro-centric (or US-centric for that matter) but should strive for universality. Information about Group III oils should be included here also in addition to the current information about Group IV and Group V synthetics, and appropriate citations found to document both that information and the "facts" currently asserted in this article. Badtux (talk) 07:19, 2 May 2008 (UTC)