Talk:Swing Low, Sweet Chariot

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[edit] Unsupported claims about "coded messages"

This page and several related pages on Wikipedia make the popular and wholly unsupported claim that spirituals were used by members of the Underground Railroad to send "coded messages." The internet source cited in this page as a reference, "Spirituals as Coded Communication," is nice to look at but empty of content. (The Frederick Douglass quotation it uses as evidence is taken out of context and does not support the claim that spirituals contained hidden messages. Read My Bondage and My Freedom if you have doubts: In the passage quoted in footnote 13, Douglass and other slaves are singing the song as a /personal/ expression of their plans to escape, not as a means to communicate secretly with others, and in a later passage he writes that he will not reveal in his book any of the actual “pass-words” used by slaves and abolitionists to communicate certain “things, important to us” (280). In other words, this song's lyrics were not part of any code, at least according to Douglass. Claims of slave songs carrying secret messages may make people feel good today (I think that's why these stories are so popular), but repeating them isn't enough to make them true. At the very least, we should admit when we tell ourselves these stories that we don't have solid, historical evidence to show that songs were used in this manner. Jk180 20:45, 9 August 2007 (UTC)jk180

[edit] Minor Reference

The japanese manga "Jing: King of Bandits" has the first two verses of Swing Low, Sweet Chariot printed between chapters in Volume Six, an allegory of the events of the book. Is this worthy of mention?

[edit] Elijah

It should be added that this spiritual refers to 2 Kings 2:1. (Prophet Elijah being taken up to heaven by a chariot).

[edit] Help!

I am having toruble formatting the lyrics to make them display correctly [[User:Rex071404|Rex071404 Image:Happyjoe.jpg ]]


Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home

I looked over Jordan And what did I see, Coming for to carry me home A band of angels Coming after me Coming for to carry me home

Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home

If you get there Before I do Coming for to carry me home Tell all my friends I'm coming too Coming for to carry me home

Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home

Sometimes I'm up And sometimes I'm down Coming for to carry me home But still my soul Feels heavenly bound Coming for to carry me home

Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home Swing low, sweet chariot Coming for to carry me home

[edit] England Rugby

I think perhaps we should include an explanation of why the England Rugby team uses this spiritual. The Story is at England_national_rugby_union_team#Post-War but is probably more appropriate here.

I put one here some time ago but somebody deleted it. It is pretty well atested too. I think there should still be a mention of the incident in the main article on the England rugby union team but feel free to edit it down.GordyB 10:46, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

my club (in the u.s.) sang swing low long before 1988. this story seems to suggest that year as the origin for its connection with rugby in the u.k. surely that can't be so.Toyokuni3 (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Just because your club in the US sang this song pre-88 does not mean that anybody in England did so.GordyB (talk) 20:45, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

do i detect a note of offense in your reply? if so, sorry. that certainly wasn't my intent. but i have always thought of rugby tradition travelling east to west across the pond, not vice versa.i know you lot originated most of the songs we sang. the mayor of bayswater, the sexual life of the camel, the whoredean school and of course, why was he born so beautiful.Toyokuni3 (talk) 23:02, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No hostility but this is an American song, it wouldn't be that surprising for Americans to be singing it. Also note that this is not a British tradition per se, it is only associated with the England team not English rugby as a whole and certainly not rugby in the other parts of the UK.GordyB (talk) 23:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fighter Pilots

This is also used as a drinking game by fighter pilots. The first person to incorrectly give the gestures for this song is required to buy the next round of drinks.
Please get a reference for this.

I find it intersting that the ENTIRE article is unreferenced.

John Mehlberg (email) 17:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Article content

As "one of the best-known spirituals," this article gives very little information on the song's origins. Most of the content is its modern use at sports games. That's not what the song is about. The "gestures" are not identified for their origin. This is clearly one of the secular versions (but which one?), not the version from church school. I don't feel the sports usage is particularly important; it doesn't fit with the article and it should be minimalized or nixed entirely. Willy Logan 05:22, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the gestures seem irrelevant. Perhaps we could spin off a new article called Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (rugby) or some such article name. MPS 13:29, 17 April 2006 (UTC)
Swing low sweet chariot is primarily known in England for its association with rugby union not because of its religious / slave origins. It is famous around the rugby playing world for this association. The words are exactly the same as would be sung by a gospel choir since it was a gospel choir that started the English rugby tradition. I don't see any need for a separate article, if the song means different things to different people this is hardly unusual.GordyB 10:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
If I may add to Gordy's comment, I believe the song is, in a lot of places, mainly known now for its association to English rugby; eg. in places like Australia and New Zealand. To be totally honest, I never really even thought about where the song came from or what its original use was, I merely associated it with England rugby, and I don't even live anywhere near England, so I think the sports usage is very important to ensure the article is written in a worldwide view, and I can only see it being moved to another page if the rugby info is large enough to warrant its own page, which, at present, is fine in the main article. Cvene64 08:05, 9 July 2006 (UTC)
The Rugby-related information is entirely unrelated to the song's usage in the United States. As an American from the South, I find this article to be almost useless. People from other English-speaking countries may find the sports information useful, but to make it the ENTIRE FOCUS of this article is idiotic, and frankly disrespectful to Southern culture. There are many people who use this song as a lullaby for children, for instance. I guarantee that 99.9% of Americans have never even heard of the Rugby union much less this song's usage there. This is absolute garbage written by uncultured morons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.243.232.244 (talk • contribs)
Tough.07:31, 16 September 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GordyB (talk • contribs)
If it distresses you that this article is overly focuses on the rugby union usage of this song, the obvious correction would be to add some quality, sourced material about other aspects. As an American from the South you may be qualified to make such a contribution, no? --Stormie 07:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I don't have those other sourced materials that you mention, but I can tell you this much: we are arranging this song for a performance by elementary school children and we had _thought_ we might refer the children to Wikipedia to get an understanding of the context of the song, but masturbation gestures are hardly an appropriate detail to give to grade 5 students. 216.185.253.130 14:51, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
I can sympathise but unfortunately Wikipedia is meant to be written for adults rather than children. If we wrote every article in a "child-safe" way then it would mean losing a lot of important content. I would suggest a different source, perhaps the Catholic encylopaedia (available on-line) would be more suitable as I doubt they mention the rugby version.GordyB 17:15, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

I'd add that even if the article were "clean", I would not recommend using it in a lesson. The unfortunate downside of an encyclopaedia that anyone can edit is that anyone can vandalise it. You would not want to open the article up and find that somebody had dlete the article and posted random swearwords (as does happen).GordyB 18:34, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Note to 195.92.168.164 and other vandals

Stop vandalising this article whether you like the rugby song or not, it exists and is notable. Continually deleting it is censorship and will be reverted.GordyB 12:46, 9 September 2006 (UTC)


Can you add a reference to these gestures then please? At the very least there is no way they can be described as traditional! In any case what do you you think it serves adding these gestures. If you feel strongly about it then it would be acceptable to have a line saying something like "the song is sometimes song with sexual actions" If I didn't know already, I (might!) be interested to know that but I don't need to know what they are Take the page [Child_sexual_abuse]. It can discuss the issue but it does not need to go into detail. Remember that wikipedia is for everyone. It is not a place for you to create your own little bit of the web. I know you might be upset that people are deleting you text but should make you think that perhaps you could make the article better. Graemec2 14:42, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

They are traditional within English rugby union. I knew of them almost 15 years ago. The gestures go with the song. You might as well not include the lyrics since you don't really need to know them as you only need to know what the song is about.
Re: your point about child abuse. The gestures do not refer to anything more disturbing than masturbation. Wikipedia is meant to be free of censorship, if the gestures were inciting rape or sexual abuse then you'd have a point but masturbation is in no way a crime.GordyB 15:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
As for references see the external links.GordyB 15:15, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

Yep there is no doubt that you have a bona fide Wikipedia article there. But I suggest that you try going up to a stranger in the srteet(a policeman would be best) and give action number four to them. Just because something exists doesnt mean it automatically is suitable for wikipedia. Your english, im sure you have been to plenty of sporting events in the past where there have been racist_chanting yet I don't seem to be able to find that page on wikipedia. Yes wikipedia is meant to be free from censorship which is why I will not edit your offensive text alone. Im not going to visit this page again but I am certain you will have to make regular visits to revert edits from people who are "vandelising" "your page". ps I'm just wondering if I should stick the common repose sung by Scottish and Welsh fans. "You can stick your f***ing chariot up your arse" on the page. Im sure I can find a reference for it. pps Did you notice that used I f***ing there? Thats right I censored myself out of respect for others who might read this page. Maybe you might thing about doing the same. |||| Graemec2 13:42, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Deleting sourced content from a page is vandalism. That's the end of the matter. There's no right to delete what you do not like. If you or anybody else want to add to the article then you are welcome to do so providing what you add passes Wiki's criteria. For the record I have never been to any sporting event where racist chanting took place and IMO this is a suitable topic for a Wiki page.GordyB 20:19, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Clearly the association with Rugby is a distinct issue from the history of the traditional church hymn -- isn't that reason enough to break the drinking game out of the main page and into a seperate Swing Low, Sweet Chariot (rugby) page that can be then independently cross-referenced with Category:"Drinking Games" and Category:"Sports Anthems" tags? Teledyn 15:04, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

No, it is the same song. If the article becomes too long then splitting into two becomes reasonable so long as there is a brief summary of the rugby song and a link to the main article. At present there is not enough content to justify this.GordyB 17:12, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Elvis

There isn't really a place for this in the article, but I just corrected an error that said Elvis Presley recorded the song for one of his movies. That was "Swing Down Sweet Chariot", a completely different song. 23skidoo 18:57, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusing statement

The history section begins with: "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot was composed by Wallis Willis" and later goes on to state: "Unfortunately, the original composer's name is permanently lost to history. Alexander Reid, a minister at a Choctaw boarding school, heard Willis singing the songs and transcribed the words and melodies." These statements seem absolutely contradictory, but neither has a source, so I'm unsure of how to approach correcting it. -=Worloq=- 19:09, 6 November 2007 (UTC)