Talk:Sweat lodge

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Didn't anybody realize that this article, apart from displaying very little actual knowledge about traditional ceremonial sweat lodges, was completely plagarized? Im fixing it. MrPMonday 01:35, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The Sweat lodge article was not plagiarism, at least not in the way you think. If you check the Internet archive [1] the Crystal Links site did not have the text of this article at the time it appeared in Wikipedia. They apparently took what I had written and added it to their site. What I wrote was rewritten from content on a number of other sites. You have added information which you say is based on your own experience. We have to be careful about this. Editing guidelines explicitly forbid using original research. I would be particularly cautious about suggesting that there is only one type of sweat lodge and one set of practises. --Lee Hunter 21:19, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
What Im writing should at least be added with the the indication that some traditions follow these methods. Many of the features ot the article are vague, and Im offering clarifications and expansions. For example: "Orientation -- The location of the door may be based on the purpose of the sweat lodge" doesnt really tell the reader much, but "In some traditions the lodge is often placed with the door facing the east, the direction signifying, in many traditions, rebirth and new beginnings. The ceremonial fire is directly to the east of the door, and is connected to the lodge by a symbolic pathway. During the ceremony this patway can only be crossed by the firekeeper.", from a previous edit, tells readers more. Granted I did not originally qualify that this was not the only way the ceremony is done in the world, but it allows the reader a little more informaiton on what actually does happen in a sweat lodge ceremony. Yurts are not North American structures, and they serve different purposes, thus they are not related to sweat lodges. Dog soldiers are military warriors, I have found no mention to them as lodge supporters. Most traditions have a formal firekeeper to tend the fire. I incorporated a lot of the information you keep reverting, but some of it needs attention. You should probably consider removing the source that says exactly what you did... it doesnt look good... like plagarism actually. And you should list your original sources. MrPMonday 22:56, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] Temperature

I've been in a sweat lodge and I've been in a sauna, and they're very different in terms of temperature. I've only been in each once and they were widely spaced so I'm not a valid source for this but I'd like some mention to be made that this isn't just your standard sauna if anyone has better information than me. A person that could bring a thermometor to both would be ideal. Vicarious 11:53, 17 March 2006 (UTC)

I would not say that temperature is a significant item. The importance is not to say exactly how hot is either a sauna or a sweat lodge, because they both cover a wide range. One important reason to mention the sauna is that the sauna is the closest thing to a lodge that most people will recognize. Another is that they both hold similar positions in the culture. The lodge and the sauna are very old, traditional ways to generate steam and clean off a person's body. We might as well make a comparison to a bath or shower, but they are so recent that by comparison they can be considered fads. [Roy C, 13 March 2007]

Seeing that the comparison with a sauna is mentioned in the "risks" section, it might be wise to mention that temperatures can "exceed that of a sauna". On the other hand, I'm not very up on wikipedia guidelines, but doesn't this section seem advisory? If there is documented evidence that people have been injured or that sweat lodge temperatures have been measured at certain temperatures it would be more factual and less cautionary.--SianMycock 01:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Nudity and sprituality

Although the article is fairly acurate for the most part, I had a problem with the section pointing to nude cerimonies as a morak of "fradulent" spritual practice. I am not expert on American Indian traditions, but i do know that the sweat lodge is not unique to the Americans, and has been an indegenious spritual practice aroudn the world. Many of the cultures practicing sweat cerimonies embrace nudity, turning away from the false modesty/sex dichotomy. While it may be true that some Native American traditions stress modesty, it is certinaly NOT ubiquitious, is the American tradition the only source to draw upon when creating a sweat cerimony.

A traditional Sweat Lodge is made up of slender withes of aspen or willow, or other supple saplings, lashed together with raw hide, or grass or root cordage. Traditionally, a sweat lodge was covered with the hides of buffalo, bear or moose. Now, the animal skins have been replaced with blankets, plastic sheeting, old carpet, heavy gauge canvas sheets and tarps to retain the heat and the steam. The entrance to the sweat lodge usually faces to the East and the sacred fire pit.

The ceremony starts with the loading and offering of the "peace pipe" in prayer. A sweat is typically four rounds or endurances, each lasting about 30 to 45 minutes. The round ends when the leader announces the opening of the door. The first round is for recognition of the spirit world which resides in the black west where the sun goes down, and the Creator may be asked for a "spirit guide" by some of the participants. The second round is for recognition of courage, endurance, strength, cleanliness, and honesty, calling upon the power of the white North. The third round is the recognition of knowledge and individual prayer, praying to the direction of the daybreak star and the rising sun that we may gain wisdom, that we may follow the Red Road of the East in all our endeavors. The last round centers on spiritual growth and healing. From our spirit guides from the west, from the courage, honesty and endurance of the north, from the knowledge and wisdom obtained from the east, we continue the circle to the south from which comes growth. It is from growth and maturing that healing comes. At anytime during the sweat you must leave, say "Mitakuye Oyasin" (All my relatives). The other participants will move away from the wall so that you may pass behind them as you leave in a clockwise direction. The first stone is placed in the west part of a small hole in the center of the lodge, then north, east, south, and in the center to Grandfather. Additional stones are then placed to Grandmother and The People.

Some protocol for a sweat is; during a woman’s “moon time” they refrain from participating in the ceremony, instead they go to a different lodge called the “moon lodge”. Men and Woman usually don’t sweat together. Stay alcohol and drug free for 4 days before the ceremony. Women cover their bodies with a modest cotton dress, men wear shorts. Each participant makes an offering for the lodge (tobacco, sage or sweetgrass and/or items such as herbs, tea, cotton cloth) when you come to ceremonies.

About men and women not usually sweating together, this is not true. In my area, the largest treaty area in Canada, it is usual that women and men sweat together. This is Lakota, Cree, and Anishinabe. The only difference I have noticed is that in our area the Anishinabe have the door facing east, while the other two groups have it facing south. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.165.172.47 (talk) 00:34, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Reliable Sources

I believe the page on Sweat Lodge is very accurate, and well written in the tone appropriate to the content. The information about sweat lodge is an ORAL TRADITION that has been building for more than 10,000 years (40,000 if you include rest-of-world. Many lodges are built acording to the traditions of many teachers and many tribes, each of which may be considered equally reliable. If the article is to be improved by being more complete we might include references to Lakota and Cherokee traditions and even Mongolian.

About nudity, it can be easily misunderstood by outsiders. Normally we sweat with the men wearing shorts and the women wearing loose dresses. Sometimes I sweat nude with the men, and my wife sweats nude with the women, and only in places with lots of privacy around. RoyCout 15:47, 13 March 2007

[edit] Cuckfuster's comments

It’s interesting to note how people who know absolutely nothing about American Indians are always the loudest and most arrogant voices on the subject of sweat lodges. Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe has been very clear on this issue. Non-Indians should not be appropriating our sacred ceremonies. Rationalizing spiritual abuse by claiming that saunas exist in other cultures is a cowardly cop out. Non Indians mock our spiritual practices by paying for fakes and frauds who conduct bogus sweat lodges. The practice is offensive and must stop. Going to a sweat lodge is racist exploitation of indigenous spirituality and ignorance in no excuse. This article should be removed, it is full of Colonial ignorance and arrogance regarding sacred Inipi ceremony and will only lead to its further exploitation. Wikipedia should have contacted legitimate indigenous spiritual leaders and let them speak for themselves. This article is irresponsible. It can't be corrected, remove it!


"Looking Horse Proclamation on the Protection of Ceremonies Source: Indian Country Today, April 25, 2003

Posted: April 25, 2003 - 10:17am EST by: Arvol Looking Horse / Guest columnist Chief Arvol Looking Horse, 19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe, would like to thank all the People that attended this historic Protection of Ceremonies meeting.


  • Bernard Red Cherries Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Arrow Priest and Elk Society Headsman
  • Tweety Little Bird Northern Cheyenne Nation Northern Cheyenne Elk Horn Scraper Society
  • Lee Pedro Southern Arapahoe Nation Southern Arapahoe Rabbit Man (Holy Man)
  • Dave Chief Ogallala Nation Lakota Spiritual Leader
  • Dave Swallow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Kevin Horse Looking Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Floyd Hand Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Silo Black Crow Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Sam Moves Camp Ogallala Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Chris Leith Prairie Island Dakota Community Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Gaylen Drapeau Sr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Gaylen Drapeau Jr. I-hank-to-wa (Yankton Sioux) Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Ambrose Little Ghost Spirit Lake Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader
  • Calvin Medicine Bear First Assinoboine Nakota Nation Nation Spiritual Leader
  • Leonard Crow Dog Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Roy Stone Sr. Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Ned Medcalf Si-c an-g u Rosebud Sioux Nation Interpretor/advisor
  • Leon Red Dog Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation - Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Steve Vance Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Francis Yellow Hoh -wo-ju Cheyenne River Sioux Nation Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Jacob Sanderson Cree Nation Canada Medicine Bundle Keeper
  • Kevin Ta-c an Sioux Valley Manitoba Dakota Nation Dakota Spiritual Leader

O n March 8th and 9th, Spiritual Leaders and Bundle Keepers of the Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nation, Cheyenne Nation and Arapahoe Nation were called together to discuss the protection from the abuse and exploitation of our ceremonies. The meeting was held at the Cultural Center in Eagle Butte, South Dakota, hosted by the Cheyenne River Sioux Tribe. I would also like to acknowledge the financial donation from the Prairie Island Dakota Community.

Discussions in the meeting included the molestation taking place in ceremony, indecent mockery, mixing of new age beliefs, charging for ceremonies and death, which was never heard of before in our ancient ceremonial history. There was also discussion of the use of other medicines (drugs) in and around our ceremonies. When the White Buffalo Calf Woman brought the Sacred Bundle, she instructed that only those with a pure mind and heart should touch the Canupa. The ceremonies in question, in reference to all the Plains Tribes, were the I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony), Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony) and Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) Sacred Rites.

We put out notice in the newspapers, native radio stations and also contacted people through the phone. I offered prayers for the safe journey of the People to this very important historic meeting. Those that could not attend, I acknowledge their prayers for a good outcome for our concerns.

After long discussion and testimonies of the concerns and issues, it was decided that it would be up to me, as the Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe to make a decision. It was good to feel the beginning of a Unity amongst our People. This has been my concern for many decades, especially now, when we are facing an oncoming war. We need to stand strong with our ceremonies!

I will state what the decision is and also explain the reasons. I will state the protocols to our Seven Sacred Rites, which were passed down to me when I became the next Keeper at the age of 12 years old. These protocols are traditional knowledge passed down through our oral history and need to be brought back to strengthen our Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) once again.

I will also address the areas that I cannot be involved in. My responsibility is the Seven Sacred Rites.

It was decided, from March 9th, 2003 and forward, there will be NO non-Natives allowed in our sacred Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alters) where it involves our Seven Sacred Rites. The only protection with this decision in Government law; is that only enrolled members can carry an eagle feather. In all the Seven Sacred Rites, there has always been the understanding of earning and a requirement of an eagle feather while participating in these Rites. The eagle feather stands for Indigenous knowledge and guidance in our spiritual ways

  • The Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi (Sundance Ceremony): The only participants allowed in the center will be Native People. The non-Native people need to understand and respect our decision. If there have been any unfinished commitments to the Sundance and non-Natives have concern for this decision; they must understand that we have been guided through prayer to reach this resolution. Our purpose for the Sundance is for the survival of the future generations to come, first and foremost. If the non-Natives truly understand this purpose, they will also understand this decision and know that by their departure from this Ho-c o-ka (our sacred alter) is their sincere contribution to the survival of our future generations.
  • Please understand the Wi-wanyang-wa-c i-pi Ceremony is not only taking place in the center (Ho-c o-ka) with the dancers. The ceremonial participation also depends on all the supporters on the outside of the arbor who should be in prayer. From the gate, to the cook shack, to the fire-keepers, to the supporters around the arbor, to even the moon camp, all people are still a part of this sacred ceremony.
  • There should be a preparation of Han-ble-c i-ya (vision quest) before you become a participant of the Sundance.
  • We shall go back into this ceremony with the proper protocols before and during the ceremony itself. Only those that have had the dream or direction through a ceremony, in concern of someone's health, should be dancing. Dancers should be secluded from outside participants, as to not be contaminated by other peoples energy or thoughts. There should be absolutely no food or water during this four-day ceremony. If there are health problems, you should choose a person to finish your commitment. This ceremony is supposed to be for those that believe they can fulfill all required four days of the ceremony.
  • Han-ble-c i-ya (Vision Quest): The vision quest should be ONLY for Native People that have had the dream or vision. This Rite is also for the young men and women that reach the age of 12 years of age.
  • I-ni-pi (Purification Ceremony): Those that run this sacred rite should be able to communicate with Tun-ca-s i-la (our Sacred Grandfathers) in their Native Plains tongue. They should also have EARNED this rite by completing Han-ble-c i-ya and the four days and four years of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi.
  • The other four sacred rites of the Hun-ka ka-g a (Making of a Relative), the Ta-pa kah -g o-ya (Throwing of the Sacred Ball), Wi-yan is -na ti (Womanhood Ceremony) and the Na-g i glu-ha (Keeping of the Spirit Ceremony), should be only handled by legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate (People).

• It was also decided only legitimate Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Oyate Medicine Bundle Keepers should handle any other ceremonies that are connected to our Ho-co-ka, such as the Lo-wa-pi and U-wi-pi ceremonies.

• There should be no price tag allowed to participate in any of our Sacred Ceremonies. The only protocol needed for a ceremony is to o-pa-g i, meaning to offer your C anupa or offer tobacco that has been prayed with, in which the Medicine Person accepts or not accept if he is not able to assist. Medicine People do need to survive, and if people wish to give a monetary or any other gifts after they receive their help from ceremony, giving it from their hearts, I see no problem with that. We have to have faith that the Grandfathers will provide for our needs to survive in this modern society; whether the gift is money, blankets, food or anything that represents how much they appreciate the help. Some people can afford big gifts, some people cannot. It all balances out.

• My position is only for the Seven Sacred Rites. I cannot dictate to our Medicine People who they allow to attend and support these Rites, in reference to non-Native People. I cannot dictate who they choose to doctor in their ceremonies. I cannot dictate where they travel to doctor.

• I have my own personal feelings on who should be Keepers of our Sacred C anupa (Pipe). The C anupa is very sacred and the Keeper should first be given a dream and be of Native decent. This issue should be further discussed in our future meetings. The reason for my feelings is that I am aware the C anupa has gone out to the International community and has been for sale. I know that most non-Native People do not understand the important protocols or have had the Traditional background to carry this sacred item properly. I am aware of women in their moon and men with blood on their hands (to take ones life intentionally) have been allowed to touch and carry the C anupa. These serious situations were never to be allowed. I offer thanks to the non-Native People that have returned the C anupa to our People, after I privately shared my concerns with them. I acknowledge their true sincerity in assisting our Nation to protect the survival of our Traditional way of life on behalf of our future generations. They have helped us bring back honor and respect to our sacred Ho-co-ka and C anupa.

• There was also discussion of only the Plains Tribal members to participate in the Ho-co-ka of the Wi-wanyang wa-c i-pi and the Han-ble c i-ya Ceremonies. In the early 70 s, Chief Fools Crow and my father Stanley Looking Horse decided to allow other Native Nations to participate in these Rites. Their reasons were based on the fact that most Nations have lost their ways through assimilation or lack of Teachers to teach their Indigenous ways. They honored and understood the unity of the First Nations People when different Tribes came to the aid of the Wounded Knee Occupation. I cannot undo their decision out of respect for our Chief and Elder. It has also been in our history that our Ancestors have respectfully shared our ceremonies with other Indigenous Nations.

• The original teachings were that the Pipe Carrier should make their own C anupa. There was an understanding of the sincere spiritual energy and the traditional values passed down through our bloodlines. All the values of compassion, love, honor, respect and truth are molded into the spiritual life they are creating. I hope that one day the future generations will again pick up this important protocol. I would like to invite all our Lakota, Dakota, Nakota Nations to the next ceremony when I bring out the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Bundle. The dates in the fall will be announced. During this time we will place the 12 honorable compassionate men to assist in taking care of the concerns of the Sacred C anupa. We will also discuss the protocols of the need to have a good mind and good heart to be a member of the Societies that will carry out these decisions in a respectful manner.

There will be another Protection of Ceremonies meeting to further discuss and address these serious issues in the future. This meeting will be sponsored by the Cheyenne Nation.

Once again, I thank all those that have offered prayers for these very serious issues to be discussed and handled in a good way.

In the Sacred Hoop of Life, where there is no ending and no beginning!

Mitakuye Oyasin, Arvol Looking Horse,

19th Generation Keeper of the Sacred White Buffalo Calf Pipe "

published under Fair Use guidelines

Cuckfuster 17:42, 25 August 2007 (UTC)


Respectfully, I do not think that the article takes a position for or against non-natives taking part in sweat lodges. Perhaps you could incorporate the objections of Arvol Looking Horse and other commentary and controversies into the article to show this dimension of the issue. I appreciate that Wikipedia is in itself a cultural enterprise that reflects encyclopedic norms alien to many cultures, but the nature of the project determines certain patterns of contribution. Wikipedia does not seek contributors; rather contributors seek it and edit it as individuals. You seem to be implying that the very existance of this article, the demographic of editors, and the structure of Wikipedia is inimical to alternative cultural norms. The point is a valid one. Some might consider it "Colonial", as you do. It's up to you whether you want to enter into that world in order to edit the article and include your points or whether you want to stay well away from it. --SianMycock 02:21, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Completely unsourced

In terms of Wikipedia standards, most of this back and forth is actually irrelevant. If the article remains, the statements by Looking Horse and other Traditionals need to be incorporated. But right now all the varying opinions about the content of the article don't actually matter: if it can't be sourced from reliable sources - and reliable in this case means sources from the actual cultures in question, not new age or pop culture misinterpretations - it will have to be cut. I'm thinking that, rather than have an article of OR describing ceremonies, whether accurately or inaccurately, it would be far better to cut this down to a brief article that gives a simple description and places it in religious, cultural and political context. - Kathryn NicDhàna ♫♦♫ 05:04, 28 September 2007 (UTC)