Talk:Surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War

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[edit] Spanish Civil War Veterans as related to World War I

In looking at this list as it slowly dwindles - which I suspect may still take a few years yet, my mind turns to the next major conflict that effected the Western World. Which, to my mind is the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939). Incidentally, it started on my birthday (July 17th, 1936), so it is of particular interest to me. In looking at the Spanish Civil War page here on Wikipedia I've noticed that there is not a similar page of surviving veterans for that conflict - although surely there can't be thousands of them still left? (Or maybe there is?) I'd be interested to know from one of the statisticians who visits these pages (JeepAssembler?) how many veterans it could be estimated that there still are from that conflict - and raise the question of at what point it is perhaps appropriate to start up a more rigorous page documenting the last 100?200?500? veterans of the Spanish Civil War.

Is anyone aware of any current resource that tracks this sort of thing in relation to the Spanish Civil War?jkm 05:55, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

My suspicion is that it is too early to start digging (could be wrong) as the youngest vets are in their mid eighties but I could be wrong, I would welcome a statistical opinion on this before I start doing any digging - luckily for the UK there appears to an International brigade trust who may have a handle on this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by SRwiki (talk • contribs) 09:47, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

The Spanish Civil War effectively ended in April, 1939; slightly more than 68 and one-half years ago. To compare with the same time span after WW1 would have been July, 1987; although I have never seen an estimate as to how many U.S. WW1 vets were still alive at that time a reasonable guestimate would be in the neighborhood of 150,000 out of the 4,735,000 who served (about 3% of the total); considering the V.A.'s estimate of 321,000 in March, 1983 and the 1990 Census count of 65,000. Of course one would have to know the total number involved in the SSW (Spaniards and Foreigners); their average ages at the time, and their actuarial life expectancies (a lot were killed in the aftermath).JeepAssembler (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)JeepAssemblerJeepAssembler (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

i read that in 1990 there were roughly 39,000 british servicemen left from 1914 - 1919. thats out of 6 million so should still be a lot left! Webbmyster (talk) 22:36, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I believe the last Welsh veteran has already died, but there weren't many in the first place. 80.2.16.73 (talk) 03:21, 12 December 2007 (UTC)Captain celery

Given the fact it was a Civil War, I can't believe that there would at least be that many foreign veterans left - as Captain celery's comment would indicate. All those that are left would presumably be in their 90s by now - can't imagine many teenagers going off to fight in a foreign Civil War!jkm 04:16, 12 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jkmccrann (talk • contribs)

I wanted to resurrect this discussion in light of the recent deaths that have occurred in relation to World War I veterans. Again I will ask, is anyone aware of any tracking, most obviously in Spain and in Spanish, of any lists with regards to Spanish Civil War veterans? Given the number of combatants of the Spanish Civil War was a small fraction of that involved in World War I, the number of veterans remaining at this stage would surely be similarly small in regards to World War I the same distance out from that conflict. Regards. 202.139.104.226 (talk) 01:59, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I don't know of any tracking yet, but I would reckon it is too early to reliably track the Spanish side of things. As of 2006 USA had 3.4 million living service men that served in WWII and that's only a maximum window of +6 years from the end of the Spanish CW, however I know that isn't the same thing. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/3908529.stm is a article describing the international force that totalled only 45,000 - they are probably candidates for tracking now due to the small pool. This as well: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4176/is_20040301/ai_n14567474 . If the total combatants was something near a million in total then I don't think you could even countenance it until the youngest would be 95 - that's some ten years off. RichyBoy (talk) 14:10, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree with RichyBoy, it is too early to make a start (though if anyone wants to, good luck) Another (possibly terminal) difficulty, is the nature of the conflict itself, in that it was fought largely by paramilitary bodies, with weak record keeping. I would hazard a guess that the Fascist vets are reasonably well documented. But I also suspect that the records for the Republicans, Communists, Anarchists etc will probably be sketchy at best. So this could well be bedevilled with undocumented or just plain spurious claims. SRwiki (talk) 09:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

With an international force of 45,000 - would it be right to assume that most of those veterans would have been in their early-mid 20s to be going and fighting in a foreign civil war? Surely that means comparisons with the conscription of younger recruits for the World Wars means that these veterans are going to die out well before, relatively in terms of length of time from the conflict, than veterans from the World Wars. Someone who went to fight in Spain as a 23yr old in 1936 would now be 95 - the age you mention above. In a cohort of 45,000 - how many survivors were there? And what proportion of that 45,000 (or whatever number survived) would be expected to live to the age of 95 anyway? Can't imagine it would be too many. As for the Spanish veterans - the diffifulties in verifying these I would have thought makes it more important to get on top of finding out and trying to verify possible veterans as soon as possible. 58.175.240.247 (talk) 10:22, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

It's those very difficulties which means it isn't worth worrying about until there are more manageable numbers. Depends why you are interested of course - if it was just numbers the Spanish government probably do produce a list but as already mentioned above it's likely to be of dubious value, rather, it can't ever be truly accurate. Also, if you are interested in tracking the last veterans to find out who truly is the last one then you need to throw 1936 and 23yr old out of the window - 1939 and 18 is much more like it - not to say that a 1936 vet can't out-last the younger ones but you need to track the youngest who joined up latest - anyone that is older at that point will pop up anyway where as a few years earlier and he would just be one amidst many. For the record about 16,000 died of that 45,000 or so in the International Brigade (website here) http://www.international-brigades.org.uk/ - I did some digging around and discovered that 2,400 British soldiers joined the International brigade, and 526 of those died. In the year 2000 some 40 of these 1874 were still alive - I think they are down to their last handful now, inerestingly Jack Jones is amongst them. For the International Brigade it is probably time to track, there are probably less than 150 or so now. The Spanish in the civil war is going to throw up a lot of 15 years old fighting I would imagine and survivors are going to rank in their thousands still. RichyBoy (talk) 03:06, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I agree that there will be plenty of Spanish veterans who were fighting in this war as 15yr olds - no doubt - and it is very tough to verify who these people actually were, but I guess I was being more concerned particularly with International Brigade veterans. You brought up Jack Jones, and it just so happens that he was a 23yr old when he went across to fight - kind of illustrating the point I was making in terms of International Brigade veterans. Sure, there would have been 18yr olds and 19 yr olds who went across to fight in a foreign civil war - just as there were in Bosnia in the 1990s, but of the 45,000 quoted, I think that it would have been a very low percentage of that - under-represented in that figure. At a pinch I think the mean age would skew higher than conflicts like WW1 and WW2 (or the Spanish veterans themselves - which would have a mean age skewed younger), with I still believe, the majority of International veterans being aged in their 20s, from perhaps 22/23 at the time of the start of the conflict. The vast majority.

I guess a secondary point to be made is, you guess there may be 150 International Brigade veterans left out there - but how many are actually verified? Wouldn't be many I wouldn't have thought. So if there is a list put up on a place like Wikipedia (along the lines of this page), then that can become something of a central reference point, which can help pull some claims out of the woodwork, or people who may have heard of a claim, and then some kind of verification process is more likely to be undertaken to test the veracity of the claims - as this page does. I wouldn't claim to have the expertise to do this myself, which is why I raise it here - but I would be interested to know how many International Brigade veterans are left from this conflict - and just where they come from and live today! Very interested (I do love a good Hemmingway which may be one reason I say that).202.139.104.226 (talk) 23:17, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

• Well there is always going to be "possible" service cases to be considered that never made it onto a roll (we should be uber-dubious about these from the get-go IMO) but I believe there are complete and unfettered rolls for these armed forces members. Statistically WWII didn't really knobble the stats on older people living longer but we all know WWII knobbled the armed forced. 40 alive today should be nearer the stat just for the UK when it is probably 5 or so - so my 150 people view is IMO highly pragmatic, I don't think you will find more for this moment in time. I believe I could enumerate the UK veterans and the recently departed but I don't think I have time/resources to do any other nation (tacitally, we have agreed the international brigade needs some attention, but forget spain until 2015 say). Not least of all, the WWI list is here because of the French government awarding the legion du honneur in 1998 and making it markedly easy to track troops which were on French soil - this time around explicit co-operation with governments is likely to be required. RichyBoy (talk) 01:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• On July 15 2006 there were 24 of those British veterans left alive according to The Times (a quality UK daily newspaper - not a tabloid). http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2270636,00.html Subsequent deaths can be tracked through the obitiuaries on the Ineternational Brigade website - I've a feeling over a dozen still live based on a brief flicking through correlated to those numbers - but there we go, it's a start. The webpage could begin based on this alone. RichyBoy (talk) 01:53, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Living WW2 vets ?

Sorry folks, I know this is a bit off topic ... but out of interest , how many living WW2 vets are out there ? What date would you predict that the number of WW2 vets may have gone down to the numbers of WW1 vets that were living when this listing was first started. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.250.180.50 (talk) 00:37, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, without really thinking about it - World War II started in 1939, which was 25 years after World War I started. This list was started in 1999, which would make the logical starting point around 2024. But then you have to consider that World War II ended 27 years after World War I ended - which would push that year out to 2026. Then, you also have to consider the fact that a generation later, life expectancy has risen throughout the developed world (which comprised most of the soldiers to fight in World War II) - so the life expectancy of a World War II vet was likely to be longer than that of a World War I vet.

As well, you also have to take into account that there were many more soldiers that fought in World War II than in World War I. Given all that, there would probably not be much call to start up a similar list regarding World War II until well into the 2020s, but another thing to consider on that front is that as technology evolves, starting up a list - no matter how long, may become more and more likely given increasing ease of using tools like Wikipedia. So really, impossible to say, but there's certainly no hurry at the moment.

In a slightly related field, I have decided to put up a "Surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War" page on Wikipedia. It may appear that a war fought from 1936-1938 may have a similarly long time to wait as World War II to warrant an article, the big difference is though, despite the Spanish Civil War having a deep and abiding effect on many field of Western thought, in terms of International involvement, that was limited to perhaps 50,000 foreigners who fought for the International Brigade / Republican side and also (According to the Times Online) (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article687933.ece), 60,000 Italian troops sent by Mussolini to fight with General Franco. At the very least, I think it is well time to start finding out exactly how many of these approximately 110,000 foreign troops are still around. There could well be less than a few hundred in the entire world. (Espeically given the fact many would also have fought, and died, in the subsequent conflict of World War II.202.139.104.226 (talk) 07:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Today also happens to be the 69th Anniversary of the end of the Spanish Civil War, which occurred on April 1st, 1939.jkm 07:44, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939)

Ok, I've finally done it, I've put up a rudimentary page relating to Surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War. It can be located at Surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War. I would encourage all the usual visitors to this page to do some research if you feel like it and identify and verify as many veterans - particularly of the International Brigade (Including the Soviets) and the Mussolini forces from Italy - to ensure this article gains some depth before the inevitable "well-meaning" busy-bodies attempt to delete it. I think the respect shown to this page is ample evidence that there is a place for this sort of entry on Wikipedia. There would be those who argue that the Spanish Civil War is not as important as World War I or World War II for that matter and that there is therefore no need for such an article. I completely disagree with that relativistic and simplistic assesment of the conflict. The literature and myths - and indeed long-term effects, of the Spanish Civil War have reverberated down the decades, and indeed had a strong influence on the conduct of World War II. As such, I would again urge all interested parties to take part in fleshing out this article so that it does not become an easy target of those who will inevitably try and argue for and perhaps achieve its deletion. I have saved a copy of the Wikipedia language version of the page in case of this to make for easy re-instatement.

Thanks. jkm 08:58, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

top notch man! alun menai died in 2006 http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=9253 also do you know if that list of surviving british veterans includes the scottish? ive managed to get a good few names but a couple are scots so just wondered if they're counted.Webbmyster (talk) 22:30, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

I would presume that does include Scots, just read the article via the link and see what you think. Any veterans you have to add would be great, this is a new list and although I've put the list up - I haven't actually had time to do any research on the topic. I need to get the word out there about this, please pass on to anyone who might have an interest in this sort of thing. Cheers.202.139.104.226 (talk) 00:28, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

michael o'riordan died in 2006, he had a wikipedia page anyway so that was easy, so bob doyle is the last irishman. Webbmyster (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a list of 26 british (including irish) veterans alive in 2004 and at the moment have found 5 deceased amounst them, but have checked others and can't find an obituary or such like. So should i put them in unverified? Have added a few veterans whom there isn't anything to realy doubt.Webbmyster (talk) 15:41, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

If you have the full list, putting them in the unverified section is probably the way to go. That allows people who come along and have an interest to also find out if they are actually still alive. Cheers.202.139.104.226 (talk) 22:19, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

---

I added the only living Swedish volonteer, Karl Staf. Staf's claim is veryfied by a writer/historian Lars Gyllenhaag, who has written a book "Svenskar i Krig 1914-1945" (Swedes at war 1914-1945)

Staf has also written an autobiography himself "Den Röda Lågan"(=The Red Flame)(1997) He has lived quite an interesting life after the Spanish war - he got caught by the Germans as a member of the resistance in Denmark during ww2 and was sentenced to death - but was instead sent to a concentration camp in Germany.

Here is a thread from a war history forum where Staf is discussed. Gyllenhaag (in swedish) is commenting that Staf now is the only one left out of the slightly more than 500 volonteers in the international brigade that came from Sweden: http://forum.skalman.nu/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=22160&st=0&sk=t&sd=a (there were approximately ten swedish volonteers on Franco's side - the last one died in 1989)

I checked www.ratsit.nu today - and he is still listed = alive, Ratsit has listings of all living swedes, directly from the census and taxation authorities. Maybe my reference on the front page to an old magazine article in a left wing magazine http://www.ordfront.se/Ordfrontmagasin/Artiklar/Nog%20har%20man%20haft%20tur.aspx should be altered to any of the other sources? Hepcat65 (talk) 23:24, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

You should use whatever link (or links) you think best back up the claim. I'm happy with that.202.139.104.226 (talk) 03:25, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I began the yearly deceased pages but havent got them up to scratch as have got to go to work just so people dont think im planning on leaving them like that! Webbmyster (talk) 11:00, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

excluding the ones someone put up i have another 10 british names of veterans alive in 2003-2005 but was leaving them until i could find something of them being alive nearer to 2008, what do people think about putting them up? Webbmyster (talk) 14:48, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

_______

I've put up some others I've found. Other veterans not put up are:

Jules Paivo, alive 2006 aged 89 (Finland, resident US) [1]

John Dunlop, alive 2001, aged 86 (Scotland) [2]

Alden Bryant, alive 18/5/2002 (USA) [3]

Carl Geiser, alive 2001 (USA) [4]

William Herrick, died Jan 2004 (USA) [5]

John Rossen, died 2003 (USA) [6]

Marvin Penn, died 2001 (Canada) [7]

Perhaps others can investigate further

86.141.174.237 (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2008 (UTC)Bruce