Talk:Sundown town

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

WikiProject Secret Societies This article is within the scope of WikiProject Secret Societies,
a WikiProject which aims to improve all articles related to Secret Societies.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the assessment scale.
Low This article is on a subject of low-importance within Secret Societies articles.

This article has been rated for quality and/or importance but has no comments yet. If appropriate, please review the article and then leave comments here to identify the strengths and weaknesses of the article and what work it will need.
Articles for deletion This article was nominated for deletion on December 5, 2006. The result of the discussion was keep.

Contents

[edit] do not remove

Do not remove the towns listed. The book sourced contains the info. Vidor, Texas is mentioned on page 276 as one of the places that "built national reputations as sundown towns." TimSPC 4:56 21 Oct. UTC

[edit] present tense?

Are there any present-day sundown towns? The book doesn't claim that, does it? At least in the case of Edina, MN, blacks are not excluded anymore. Can you name any present-day sundown towns? Pfalstad 19:26, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Questionable References

Kennewick, Washington uses reference 2, but there is just one item in the references section. Where did reference 2 go?

Someone needs to read the lone reference and contextually verify it names all those towns as Sundown Towns. It seems odd that a disproportionate number would be in Illinois. If it is true, then the reason why should be noted here. —This unsigned comment was added by 198.95.226.224 (talk • contribs) 10 March 2006.


In one chapter, the author James Loewen says that integrated towns went sundown like dominos as riots that led one town to go sundown would spark similar movements in near by towns. A well known riot that did not succeed in removing the black population was in Springfield, Illinois, which might explain the numerous Illinois sundown towns. Finally there are other sundown towns they just haven't been posted. —This unsigned comment was added by 66.72.97.137 (talk • contribs) 24 March 2006.
There are lots of sundown towns. That's not a complete list. Loewen did a lot of research in Illinois because he's from there. Pfalstad 01:55, 25 March 2006 (UTC)
In answer to the first question: numbers relate to footnotes, not to the reference list. This is normal and correct. -- Jmabel | Talk 16:07, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tom Joyner

The text from this article was read almost verbatim on the Tom Joyner Morning Show Wednesday morning (3/22/2006). I thought it all sounded familiar.—This unsigned comment was added by 131.81.200.154 (talk • contribs) 23 March 2006.


[edit] Removing Towns Without Reference

As the title says, i am removing cities from the list without citation. So you better find it soon if you want them to stay. Thankszoreos!--Geppy 00:50, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

I just removed another on this basis. I'm sure there were hundreds, if not thousands; I'm sure they are mostly citable, especially from Loewen's book. More would be welcome, I could even see spinning a list out of the article, but not without citation. - Jmabel | Talk 22:45, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't have the cites to put Glendale, California in the article, but it did have the reputation of being a "sundown town". Even today, when Glendale is quite ethnically diverse, there is a noteable lack of an African-American population.

[edit] Alameda, California?

On a recent visit there I heard that Alameda was a Sundown town. I was surprised to hear this... particularly because apparently the enforcement was a direct request from the U.S. Army until the early 1960s. (that late?) Also, of course, given the level of diversity on the San Francisco Bay Area. Any truth to this? Demf 15:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Dearborn, Michigan

Dearborn, Michigan was recently added with the remark "see article". So I did. The article says nothing about it being a subdown town. It merely says "Dearborn was known nationally for its de facto racial segregation under Mayor Orville L. Hubbard, whose 36 year tenure ended in 1978.…" Most northern towns were de facto segregated at least into the 1960s. If segregation there actually means racial exclusion, then fine, but the article doesn't say so. I've asked on its talk page. In any event, the statement in the other article gives no citation at all, and I don't see how one uncited Wikipedia article is supposed to be a valid source for another article. - Jmabel | Talk 00:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Towns in Illinois

Reading the main article suggests, at least on the surface, that Illinois is the most racist state in the country. I find it inconceivable that such a high percentage of sundown towns were in Illnois and doubt that this list is anywhere near complete. The main article should mention that the researcher was from Illinois. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.113.162.17 (talk • contribs) 20 October 2006.

Yes: not most racist, just better documented. Of course, well-documented additions would be very welcome. So far, most of the additions that people had made were nothing but undocumented assertions. - Jmabel | Talk 02:16, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
This is something that is quite hard to document. As Loewen's book mentions, it's not something that these towns want out in the public. --Woohookitty(meow) 11:00, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Cnn is currently running a story about sundown towns & Vidor, Texas, which would confirm the article. It's good that it's here.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 14:01, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

What about "White_Settlement"? The name alone implies sundown.

Thank You.

[[ hopiakuta | [[ [[%c2%a1]] [[%c2%bf]] [[ %7e%7e%7e%7e ]] -]] 14:06, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Good work! :) Yeah that's the thing. They exist. And I think alot of the "WHAT?!" is from the fact that it's hidden. It's not something that's out in the open. But yes, Vidor is definitely sundown. I remember hearing that way back in 1989 when the documentary The Thin Blue Line. Came out. David Harris was from Vidor and one of his attorneys mentioned that African Americans refused to spend the night in Vidor. --Woohookitty(meow) 17:19, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Removed the list

I removed, wholesale, the list of sundown towns. As per WP:LIVING, among other things, we must be very careful with regards to these allegations. (Okay, the towns themselves aren't living, but hundreds of thousands of people living in them are.) MANY of the towns were almost completely unsourced. If there are solid, concrete sources for certain towns, you can hold them up as examples--but I think we should make sure we source everything pretty dang well. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 22:58, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

WP:LIVING has no relevance, as the list was explicitly of historical sundown towns. — goethean ॐ 23:02, 12 December 2006 (UTC)
Fine, WP:V is probably more appropriate. After reading it, I'd love to know the justification for the majority of towns listed. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 01:56, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, according to alot of anecdotal evidence cited in Loewen's book, Anna, Illinois was said to stand for "Absolutely No Ni***** Allowed" according to several residents. There is also evidence in the book of sundown signs in most of the cities. As for Vidor, Texas, if you look at the cnn article, it's pretty obvious that it was a sundown town. Matt, what exactly are you looking for? You are not going to find cities saying "We're a sundown town!". The evidence is either anecdotal or the "Don't Let the Sun Set On You" signs. If you're looking for concrete laws, you are not going to find them. I mean, the lynchings done in these towns and others weren't legal...neither was the sundown status in some of these towns. You just aren't going to find evidence beyond the signs and anecdotes along with evidence that shows the African-American populations of these cities and counties literally going from 300-400 to near 0 in a decade. --Woohookitty(meow) 05:25, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Well, yeah, solid evidence would be hard to find. And without solid evidence, these claims can't go in... and I believe they shouldn't. Remember, the burden of proof lies with the one who wants the information in. And I will personally track you down and give you an ice cream sundae if you can come up with solid evidence on this. (Well, not literally, but maybe a picture of one on your talk page. ) I'm thoroughly unconvinced that the book's reliable--I mean, did you see the external link? All of Idaho was a sundown town? What?? Honestly, I'm not opposed to Vidor, etc., being labeled as such (CNN's a reliable source), but as for most of the others... I just would love to have more evidence before putting out this long list of claims stating that "such-and-such town once kicked out all black people at sundown every night and lynched whoever didn't leave". On a case-by-case basis, we could probably put things in. I'll let you respond before I edit again, but I think that until solid evidence comes in regarding the rest, WP:V demands that we take out the cities with only that not-too-credible book supporting them. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:38, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, you didn't edit war? Sweet! :) Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 05:39, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
Nope, just added a link for Vidor. As for the book. Well. I've read it. I think some of it is very solid (especially the census data that shows these counties going from 300-400 African-Americans to 50 or 60 in a decade), but alot of it is spotty. But I think it's because as you said, it's hard to get hard eveidence on this stuff. Loewen even says in the book that he asked librarians if they held on to these signs for historical reasons and they basically laughed in his face. So yeah, I get your point (which is why I didn't edit war). Unless we have reliable evidence, specific cities probably shouldn't be listed. Vidor is good to list as an example city. It says it's reformed, but look at the demographics. :) 0.07% African-American. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:09, 13 December 2006 (UTC)
I would love love love if we could find a PD picture of one of the signs. I suspect we won't. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:12, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Here it comes again

Again, let's get slightly better references. "So-and-so said that these towns might be sundown towns" is, imo, very unreliable and not very encyclopedic. Oh, and take a peek at this link here... I mean, there are fifty pages like this on the author's own university-hosted site, listing POSSIBLE sundown towns (it's also notable that each of the pages, as best as I could see, said "POSSIBLE")... and look. We mentioned Kennewick, WA as a sundown town, but the site doesn't. It mentions tons of WA cities as possible sundown towns, but our article didn't. Can you see how this isn't working? Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 03:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you claiming that James W. Loewen does not claim that these towns listed were sundown towns in Sundown Towns? — goethean ॐ 23:18, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I think Matt's point is that even the author isn't 100% sure. And if you read the book, Loewen isn't shy about saying that. Some were definitely sundown, including Vidor, Texas. I don't think that Matt would object if we listed the ones that we're sure about. Vidor. I'd go with Anna-Jonesboro, Illinois as well. Pretty solid evidence. But we can't list all that the author does since he's not sure either! --Woohookitty(meow) 00:16, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, Goethan, I do believe I am claiming, or at least suggesting, that he's not even sure. Even if he were, without some hard, verifiable evidence being provided for us, that still doesn't merit the inclusion of such allegations. This is an encyclopedia, for heaven's sakes! We don't say things that aren't fully notable (one professor in Vermont labeling a bunch of towns sundown towns does not bring notability) and verifiable. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 19:15, 22 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd agree with Matt. It's clear from the book that he isn't sure. I get the impression from the book that Loewen just wants a "foot in the door", i.e. a place to start from since so little research has been done on the subject. --Woohookitty(meow) 12:58, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Additions

Just now, I added some statements to the article about how sundown restrictions involved more than just living. Any objections, Matt? That's the thing. We can add quite a bit to this article without listing the towns. --Woohookitty(meow) 13:05, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

A little delayed, but I should go on the record as saying that I like how the article looks now. Nicely done. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 07:27, 1 February 2007 (UTC)
Why thank you. :) Haven't looked at it in a bit. Should see what else we can add. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 11:06, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] 1/3 of idaho chinese.

please veryfy with pg number b/f reverting. i need to verify this. pg numbers are neccessary when wikipedia's user deem it is neccessary. it is neccessary now. if this info is valid, do not fear revealing the pg numbers. i have access to the book, just give me the pg numbers, let's verify and we can insert info into article. sorry, but that's reasonable. --Hollerbackgril 14:17, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Firstly, it's quite alright to revert to one's own version. It happens hundreds of times (if not thousands) on Wikipedia. I added the page numbers. If you want more citations from the book, I can add them. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 15:39, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] The list of cities

I see that a list of sundown towns was added again. Problem is that there is only one source (Loewen) and that one source never is clear on what is for sure a sundown town and what isn't. He uses "possible" quite a bit. We need to find other sources. --WoohookittyWoohoo! 11:33, 8 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree. I don't know why his book keeps getting referenced by visitors--surely he's not the only person to ever mention sundown towns. But yeah, I think the list has got to go. One source isn't remotely enough for such an accusation. Matt Yeager ♫ (Talk?) 23:39, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Misleading

The listing of towns is wholly misleading. 12 of 18 are in Illinois, it gives the false impression that Illinois is/was the location of the most of these types of towns. There were plenty, maybe still are some in southern Illinois especially, but the weight given IL towns is misleading, even if there are hundreds, there are surely just as many in other states. I don't know that examples are even needed, its not like this stuff is easily verifiable, even those who know the material can't say for sure.208.82.225.232 (talk) 05:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)