Talk:Suburb

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Contents

[edit] We need a criticism section!

Suburbs are often critisized for -cookie cutter housing -lack of grid system/lack of public transport -lack of diversity -lack of sidewalks -Ugliness

We need a unbiased section on how suburbs are criticized.

[edit] Columbine HS pictures?

I find it kind of tasteless that a picture of columbine high school in Littleton, Colorado is used to show a suburban HS. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.57.115.103 (talk) 00:07, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strict definition

"Beyond walking distance"?? Who defined "suburb" that way? A suburb is by definition outside of the city limits. Merely being beyond walking distance from the city's center doesn't put you in a suburb, unless the city is small enough. Michael Hardy 22:16 Mar 20, 2003 (UTC)

Isn't it defined as outside of the CBD? Usually a city (officially, under one mayor) includes both the oldest/noisist part of Downtown and also the residential or even farming areas. --Menchi 00:22, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
Depends. Suburb is one of those words that have slightly different meanings depending on where in the English-speaking world one is located. In some parts of the world, it describes areas of a city that are on the outer edges away from the center, while in other parts it describes seperate municipalities that exist because of their proximity to the main city, but are politically seperate.oknazevad 9 Dec 2004
I read a good book on the subject of suburbanization - The Geography of Nowhere. The author implies that suburbs are municipalities where most people commute to work in a nearby city.
I'd define a suburb as an urbanized place economically and culturally dependent on and intergrated with an older and/or larger place nearby, without significant rural area between them. The Geography of Nowhere is narrow-minded, foolish, and economically ignorant --Stolypin 21 August 2006


I'm surprised that we don't have anything on anti-suburban movements, that sort of thing. Rhymeless 07:37, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Because you didn't write it. --Menchi 07:51, 1 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I mean, be bold. :-) --Menchi 00:22, 25 Jun 2004 (UTC)
The Geography of Nowhere is a good, anti-suburban book
So is Suburban Nation 69.255.207.149 (talk) 03:57, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Is Virginia Beach really still considered a suburb? With nearly half a million people, it is the biggest city in Virginia. Michael Hardy 23:14, 24 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Virginia Beach is a suburb of Norfolk, I lived there for years. It has more daytime out-commuting than daytime in-commuting, and its history began as a weekend escape and bedroom community of Norfolk. Besides it has more in common with a county than a traditional city. But I think the confusion rests in "What is a suburb?" --Stolypin
And who came up with the idea that Oakland, CA is a suburb? At nearly 400,000, it's far too large to be considered a true suburb. Plus it has 3 major pro sports teams! oknazevad 20:50, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)
It's not so much that it has nearly 400,000 people as that it was historically - and continues to be - a major industrial center, has one of the busiest ports on the West Coast, has a major airport, and is a major rail hub. It is also considered by OMB and the Bureau of the Census to be the center of a major metropolitan statistical area in its own right, as well as being one of the three major cities in the whole Bay Area (the MSA being referred to as the San Francisco-Oakland-San Jose MSA). See also ongoing discussion on Talk:California. A different city should be selected as an example. Long Beach, perhaps?--Eric 05:52, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)
It is not the size of the area that determines whether or not it is suburb or urban, but the overall makeup of the area and the style of growth. 69.255.207.149 (talk) 03:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Anaheim and Santa Ana, CA, are not suburbs; both are anchor cities in Southern California. Both Anaheim and Santa Ana have over 350,000 residents apiece.

Santa Ana, a major hub of business and industry, is the second most densely populated major city in the western United States after San Francisco. Santa Ana is a major government center, home to U.S. Federal buildings, U.S. Federal Court House, U.S. Bankruptcy Court, Courts of Appeals, has branches of the California Government based in it, and is headquarters to the Orange County Government, which oversees the nearly 3.5 million residents of Orange County.

The two cities are both destination points, which commuters and consumers drive to each morning. Anaheim, Santa Ana, and their neighboring cities are home to several Fortune 500 company headquarters and the regional and national headquarters to many major corporations.

Before the 1950s’ Anaheim did meet the definition of a suburb; however, that changed with the explosive growth in Southern California over the past half century.

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/lfmonth/oran$PDS.pdf

http://www.ocbc.org/

http://www.locationoc.com/

Flyingarrow 03:52, 29 Mar 2005 (UTC)


I think the problem comes with "How do you define suburb?" --Stolypin

Is it really necessary to list three cities that Mesa is bigger than, and thirteen (!) smaller than Mississauga? I propose that one prominent example for each would be sufficient. Anyone agree? Gellersen 09:12, 24 Jun 2005 (UTC)

-History-

The History section needs more actual history. In the Geography of Nowhere, the author states that Llewelyn Park in New Jersey was the first American suburb - being a town where everyone commuted to work in either Newark or New York City.

I thought the history section was lacking, as well. Therefore, I added a brief history of suburbs in places such as Classical Rome and Industrial-Age London. I was unsure if there should be a citation here. The section consists mostly of general knowledge, but it is all laid out in Bruggeman's Sprawl: A Compact History, cited elsewhere on this page. In the spring, I will begin a masters thesis on the suburbs of Classical Rome. --Stolypin 21 August 2006

i live in Billerica which is a suburb or Boston MA...people in this suburb try to act like they are from the city as if that would make them cool personally i dont like suburbs Voldpotter 17:30, 4 April 2007 (UTC)voldpotter

[edit] Favelas?

Would a favela be considered a suburb in the same sense as the bidonvilles or shanty-towns? I've put in the reference but if it's inappropriate someone should take it out again. HDC 07:47, 19 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Needs cleanup - particularly WRT Australia

Directly conflicting statements in paragraphs three and five under 'semantics' with respect to Australia. Which is it--merely residential neighbourhood outside of a city or...?

Also, use in US is more fluid than the paragraph under sematics suggests. Often means simply a residential area outside of a city. Quill 03:04, 2 September 2005 (UTC)

I have fixed up the Australian definition. Hope it is clearer. --Bass hound 11:15, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge with suburbia

Keep this article as it is! This article when merged with suburnia will not be as good as it kept in this state! (Unsigned)

I think merging is a good idea. CarolGray 12:24, 20 October 2005 (UTC)
I do not think so at all.

Not a good idea. Suburbia also has a cultural connotation that doesn't belong in Suburbs. --BWD (talk) 18:17, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Reject I agree with BWD, Suburbia is a concept different thant the suburbs, that has to do wiht uniformity adn conformity.--Mrdthree 22:06, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Reject I'd agree with the above a 'suburb' is a functional term used in planning or the charcter area of a settlment 'suburbia' is more of a concept Bjrobinson 19:57, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Note to whoever tries to merge with suburb again. If you are going to merge with suburb do a better job or dont try.-- an encyclopedia should not be losing information.Mrdthree 17:42, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

  • There, clean merge. K-UNIT 03:45, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Virginia Beach

I've removed the mentions of Virginia Beach. Virginia Beach is the product of a city-county merger and therefore really is not comparable to suburban municipalities like Beverly Hills or Berkeley. It is more comparable to a jurisdiction like Baltimore County, Maryland, which most people would not refer to as "a suburb." In addition, Virginia Beach has its own downtown (sort of), and could legitimately be called "a city near Norfolk" rather than "a suburb of Norfolk." -- Mwalcoff 02:36, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

I would refer to both Baltimore County and Virginia Beach as suburbs. Many suburbs are quite large and have their own downtowns: Mesa, AZ; Plano, TX; Naperville, IL; Fairfax County, VA; Missaugua, ON; Long Beach, CA; etc.--Stolypin
Long Beach, CA, is no more of a "suburb" than Oakland or Jersey City, to which it is often compared. Its urban development occurred somewhat separately from Los Angeles, having originated as a port city, prior to the sprawl of both merging into one metropolitan area in the mid-20th century. It only might seem "suburban" because it is significantly smaller than Los Angeles, but if located in any other county in California it would dominate said county. The suburban stereotypes listed in the article certainly don't apply to Long Beach. Admittedly, in Los Angeles County, the definition of "suburb" becomes difficult to establish because of the large number of smaller municipalities, and the relative inapplicability of the term "inner city" outside of downtown LA, mid-Wilshire, and Hollywood - for example, Beverly Hills is closer to downtown L.A. than the area where the 1992 Rodney King riots in South Los Angeles is.To get back to the topic at hand, I wouldn't consider Long Beach a suburb (although I would consider Glendale and Pasadena to be suburbs) **** —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.106.208.36 (talk) 02:44, 12 January 2007 (UTC).

[edit] Canada

The term is used in Canada the same as is it in Britain, etc. The section of this article seems to imply that it is used here like the definition given for American English. I've never heard of a suburb as being outside of city limits before ~~

I have - Surrey, Burnaby, Langley, Maple Ridge, &c are referred to as "suburbs" of Vancouver - all of which are spearate municipalities in their own rights (that is, electing their own councils, &c).

[edit] Xenophobia

I have removed this sentence from the "Controversy" section:

"It is thought by some people that many residents of the suburbs seem to embrace elitism, racism, homophobia and all around xenophobia."

For one, it was grammatically inconsistent with the structure of the list. Secondly, it talks about suburban residents rather than suburbs themselves. I also doubt that suburbs are more homophobic than central cities, except perhaps in places like NYC and San Francisco. -- Mwalcoff 23:01, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Songs About Suburbs

Two sections about this, suggest deleting one.

Hecho. -- Mwalcoff 02:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] UK

Someone changed the UK section of "Semantics" to make it read as if British people use the word like Americans do. But I know that, for instance, Clifton, Bristol is called a "suburb" even though it is in the inner part of the city. Can someone please clarify that section? Thanks -- Mwalcoff 02:07, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Minneapolis-St.Paul suburban area

Perhaps adding in this area as an example. With a total metro area population of roughly 3 million, yet only 600,000 or so in the cities themselves, is seems a perfect example of urban sprawl. -- Steelcobra

-I agree

[edit] movies, TV, books

It's kind of silly to have a list of movies and TV shows with suburbia references - that would encompass 2/3 of the American sitcoms made over the past 35 years. There's no reason why some have been mentioned, and others haven't. That whole section could be reduced to a couple of paragraphs saying something like "many works of 20th-century art and culture, especially since WWII, have been set in, or have commented on, the role of suburbia in modern life," IMHO.

I started to try editing it down, but gave up after removing one particularly egregious discussion of one move; there's no reason some should be mentioned and not others. I think the entire list of movies and songs should be removed entirely. Or perhaps create a whole new article, such as Suburbs in pop culture, where all the fancruft could be dumped. - DavidWBrooks 10:57, 25 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Controversy Section

I've renamed the Controversy Section -> Public Health and Environmental Impact. I couldn't find much evidence of controversy while researching this section so I think it is a misleading section name. The claims in the section appear to be agreed upon by most planners. Please let me know if anyone disagrees. Midwestmax 22:27, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

While I think some of what you have included improves the article, it surely swings the article far too much toward the anti-suburb side. There are a lot of libertarian-oriented people who think suburban sprawl is just okee-dokey, and their claims should be included too. Indeed, I'd say encylopedic style would emphasize simple facts and not allocate too much space to competing pros and cons. -- Mwalcoff 23:16, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. The [Urban Sprawl]] article may be the more appropriate place for "controversy." Why not simply refer to that article? Phmalo 00:40, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Components"

The "components" section should either be eliminated or largely changed. While it's true that sprip malls, office parks and subdivisions are typical of postwar U.S. suburban development, they do not define it -- many suburbs do not have those characteristics. -- Mwalcoff 22:41, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] History Section

The history section of this article has a number of sentences that need citations. I will work on cleaning this up. Also, I am going to remove the initial paragraphs that discuss Mesopotamian and Roman "suburbs." These ancient communities outside of the city were not suburbs in the modern sense. Please let me know if anyone disagrees. Midwestmax 23:28, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

I think the articles should be put back in (and I will do so later). This article isn't about "suburbs in the modern sense" nor is it about "urban sprawl" (the uninformed authors of this article seem to believe so,however).--Rotten 22:24, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
I agree. The article is about suburbs and a history of suburbs should include a "historical" context. I rememeber seeing a refernce to the Roman suburb of Ostia on this page. I think that would be relevant.
The history section should have a larger focus of the development of the suburb in eighteenth century London. The then largest city in Europe suffering from an "inability of premodern cities to cope with explosive and modern urban expansion". Chapter 1 'London: Birthplace of Suburbia' of Fishman's book 'Bourgeois Utopias: The Rise and Fall of Suburbia' (1987) is just one of many respected published works that sources the original development of suburban areas to the physical and social conditions of London at that time. If you read the history section currently you get the impression that suburbinisation first became popular in post-WWII North America. Suburbia is such a large part fo modern cities that it is sometimes hard to understand that it had to be pretty much 'invented'. Onefournine 07:25, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] References in popular culture

The references to suburbs and suburbia in popular culture are so many, that a list of popluar works dealing with, taking place in, or being somehow related to, suburbs, is impossible to maintain, not to mention unencyclopedic. The same goes for the list of songs. I therefore deleted both these sections.

I aknowledge the impact of suburbs and suburbia on popular culture, and a section dealing with this could concievably be a good thing, but then it should be a section, in prose form, of the general impact. Not a list of random examples.

Please read wikipedia:trivia before re-creating any of the deleted sections.Dr bab 12:59, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Unbalanced Article

This article paints a very negative view. I guess all the people moving into the suburbs are just simply irrational. GregInCanada 03:34, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

They probably are! Humans make irrational decisions. It's part of our nature. Peoplesunionpro 22:15, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. People vote with their feet (or automobiles). I'm partial to Bruegman's views. Phmalo 00:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)


There is a major problem with this article's "tone". Just look at the "see also" section.

I lived in a old part of a city, before zoning. I had an auto repair shop just 15 feet from the back of my apartment. Beginning at 7:30am, air tools started. At the same location, I was 200 feet from a factory that made windows. At 10pm 6 nights a week, a 30-60 second sound of breaking glass occured as a front-end loader dumped glass into a dumpster. This is exactly why suburbs came into existance.

This article is full of stereotypes. The "see also" section includes: Conspicuous consumption, Consumerism, Herd instinct, Herd behaviour, Over-consumption, and White people.

I recommend taking down this artilce until it is rewritten with a proper balanced tone.

[edit] Article heavily biased against suburbs

Not only is it biased, it's confusing issues. Suburbs may be urban and transit-oriented in nature, this article confuses urban sprawl and suburbs, which may be often one and the same but are not always. There are plenty of transit-oriented suburbs out there. Plus it makes it seem like suburbs are responsible for all our evils in society. I'm going to scrap large parts of this article (rightly so).--Rotten 22:09, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm going to pare down, trim and consolidate the claims against suburbs into a single, smaller section. This article is obscenely long as it is. Let me know if anyone has any objections.--Rotten 22:30, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Greater London - Largest suburbs worlwide list

I am puzzled as to the absence of Greater London not topping the current list of largest suburbs worldwide. Am I missing something? Isn't central London around 7 million with Greater London adding about a further 7 million? Therefore London's suburban population must be some 7 million. Why is it excluded? Thanks. Tumblingsky 14:18, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Greater London has only 7.5 million inhabitants. Central London has only 2.8 million inhabitants Greater London is the city.. so the 7.5 million inhabitants of Greater London officialy don't live in the suburbs. Minato ku (talk) 18:54, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

In the American sense of suburb, the suburbs of London are the 2million or so people who live in Metropolitan London but outside Greater London. Lord Cornwallis (talk) 16:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Strip mall mis-redirect

The "strip mall" link redirects to the play "strip-mall' when it should redirect to the article about "strip-malls'.

I'ts been corrected.

[edit] Pertaining to Australian section

This article is about The Suburb, and the charactaristics, shortcomings, commuting difficulties, sociology and psychology of the suburbs, difficulty for pedestrians, and other mechanical characteristics of the suburbs. Yet, in the Austrian section of the article, all there is is telling about individual suburbs, and telling about it's/their various attractions. This is irrelevent, and takes away from the article. If a person wants to tell about the various sports teams, activities and other charming things about of an individual suburb, they should be told about in a seperate article about that particular suburb. Whoever wrote all of that "chamber of commerce" type of information about specific suburbs and their attractions is missing the point of this particlular article. Slater79 22:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Merge proposal

Suburbanisation seems to cover much of the same ground as suburb. It makes sense that the article relating to the suburb also covers the process (suburbanisation). --Joopercoopers 12:07, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Suburbanization is a unique phenomenon that is suitable for an article on its own. Suburbanization gets 489,000 google hits; surbanisation gets 110,000 gh. A poorly written article on the process of suburbanization is better than none. – Freechild (¡!¡!¡!¡) 14:30, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
If the process article duplicates part of the thing article, the answer is simple enough. Move the process information from this article to that, leaving a "Main article" pointer. Jim.henderson 02:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

No, don't merge, the suburb article is long enough and suburbanization involves more than just the creation of suburbs.futurebird (talk) 01:12, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Reject These articles should NOT be merged. The suburbs article is already quite long and still has the potential to expand. The suburbs article should be a description of what the suburbs are. The suburbanization article should be an article about the effects (good or bad) of suburbanization. HeWasCalledYClept (talk) 20:24, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Suburb definition

According to Jza84 various districts around the outskirts of Liverpool, that are outside the actual boundary of the council but nevertheless form part of the city, its people and culture, are not suburbs...places like Huyton and Kirkby. These places exist in their own right but are also heavily linked to the city of Liverpool. Hence, suburb. The inhabitants are commonly referred to as scousers and many are Liverpool born. And just because they are not within the city boundary does not mean they are not Liverpool in general terms, it is an insult to their inhabitants !!!! 79.76.187.182 (talk) 22:51, 12 March 2008 (UTC)Dmcm2008 (talk) 23:16, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The Reason for the suburbs is due to the benefits of the GI bill. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.31.108.247 (talk) 03:23, 20 March 2008 (UTC)