Talk:Strained yoghurt

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Contents 1 Moved from "Greek yoghurt" 1.1 Merger proposal 2 Strained yoghurt articles now merged 3 Merging in labneh 4 Bulgarian yoghurt 5 Dahi?

[edit] Moved from "Greek yoghurt"

[edit] Merger proposal

I put up this proposal yesterday, and will respond below. --Macrakis 22:10, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi there - I created this stub, and have expanded it now. I don't see the rationale for merging into yoghurt. This type of yoghurt is very different from the standard product; also, the other specific types that have major differences from basic yoghurt have their own articles (eg Dahi, Dadiah, Labneh). I've mentioned it briefly in the main yoghurt article, but there is plenty of information that would bloat the main article. I notice in your edit summary that you mention other countries - yes, they do have similar products, but that isn't the point - Greek yoghurt isn't "yoghurt made in Greece" - it's a definitive name to describe that type of strained yoghurt, whichever country it's manufactured in. The name is notable, because it describes a method of manufacture, without which it has to be described as "Greek-style", etc. EliminatorJR ^Talk 23:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you are mixing up three different things:

• Yoghurt as made in Greece, traditionally of ewe's milk, nowadays often of cow's milk. Sometimes the milk is enriched, either by boiling it down a bit, or (nowadays) by adding nonfat dry milk and cream. This style of yoghurt is found from Greece to Iraq, at least. And for that matter in Watertown, Massachusetts, where there are at least four different brands (some Arab, some Armenian, etc.), whose sourness and creaminess varies.
• strained yoghurt (in Greek called σακουλίσιο γιαούρτι 'bag yoghurt', from the bag used to concentrate it), called labneh in Arabic. This style of strained yoghurt is found from Greece to Iraq, at least. Again, there are several different brands.
• Fage's brand name "Total Greek Yoghurt", which includes everything from a 10% fat product to a 0% fat product (7-9% protein), all called "Total Greek Yoghurt", so clearly "Greek yoghurt" does not refer to a specific recipe, but is simply part of Fage's trade name. Other companies use the name "Greek yoghurt" to refer to other products, e.g. the Australian Greek Yoghurt Company which makes a line of fruit-flavored yoghurts. (4% fat, 7% protein)

You claim that Greek yoghurt is "a definitive name to describe that type of strained yoghurt". Do you have any evidence of this, especially since FAGE itself uses the tradename "TOTAL Greek yoghurt" for products with fat contents from 0-10%.

In the end, as far as I can tell, "Greek yoghurt" is simply a marketing name. And I would certainly agree with your implication that the article on labneh (just the Arabic name for strained yoghurt) should be merged into yoghurt. As far as I can tell (though I have less practical experience with them), so should dahi and dadiah. --Macrakis 22:35, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• It is defintely not a marketing name. Although fairly unknown in the US, Greek yoghurt is a completely separate product in Europe - you will find hundreds of recipes calling for it rather than "ordinary" yoghurt. It is definitely the case that it refers to a separate recipe - companies are not allowed sell "Greek yoghurt" unless it is made in the traditional way - it has to be called "Greek-style", as the article says.

What evidence do you have of this? The EU page on Greek PDOs does not mention any kind of yoghurt; indeed, the term "Greek yoghurt/yogurt" doesn't appear on the europa.eu site at all. FAGE itself calls TOTAL 10% 'strained' yoghurt, and their page on kinds of yoghurt doesn't use the term "Greek yoghurt". Anyway, it would seem peculiar to give a PDO for an industrially-made product which FAGE invented in 1975 and which makes no claim to use geographically-restricted and traditional ingredients (e.g. ewe's milk from some particular region); FAGE in fact boasts that it uses milk from all across Greece.[1]

The nutrition info on the sites the current article points to contradicts the idea that it is a "separate recipe" -- the Australian Greek Yoghurt contains 12% sugar, whereas FAGE yoghurt contains no added sugar.

• The important difference is mainly in cooking, where the manufacture is very important. To get an idea of this, look at Google (which is mainly composed of recipes) - "Greek yoghurt" gets 65,000 hits, and "Greek yogurt" another 107,000. The fact that Fage manufactures different types is fairly irrelevant, I think - they are merely capitalising on the marketing of the main product. If anything, labneh and dahi should probably be merged into Greek yoghurt, rather than the main article. EliminatorJR ^Talk 00:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, many people use "Greek yoghurt" when they really mean strained yoghurt, which indeed has different cooking characteristics from unstrained yoghurt; or maybe they mean FAGE's TOTAL 10% in particular. And anyway, the fact that many pages mention "Greek yoghurt" is no more probative than the fact that 102,000 sites mention "Italian olive oil" and 73,000 mention "Russian caviar". This is quite different from, say, "Kalamata olives", which do have a PDO.

As for the suggestion that labneh and dahi should be merged in, I agree that WP policy calls for English names, and therefore that labneh should be in the same article as other strained yoghurts (though some varieties of labneh are much drier), and dahi in the same article as regular yoghurt.

On the other hand, the name "Greek yoghurt" is both incorrect and non-neutral. If there is to be a separate article for strained yoghurt (I have no particular objections to that if there is enough material), the name should be neutral. Even FAGE itself uses the generic name "strained yoghurt": "Total [is] in the position of first preference for strained yoghurt"[2]; TOTAL is a "delicious Greek strained yogurt with cream, exclusively created by FAGE".[3]

In conclusion, "Greek yoghurt" does not denote a particular kind of yoghurt even by the evidence of the largest Greek producer of yoghurt. Strained yoghurt may well deserve its own article, and should cover labneh as well. --Macrakis 14:42, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The idea of merging all the strained types into a separate article is a good one, it could be linked from the main Yoghurt article, and will have the advantage of making that article more compact. Since the "common name" in Europe is Greek yoghurt, a redirect from there to Strained yoghurt wil suffice. In fact, I'll be WP:BOLD and do that sometime this weekend. EliminatorJR ^Talk 10:26, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Strained yoghurt articles now merged

[edit] Merging in labneh

I have merged in the labneh article. Here is the content of its Talk page:

I cannot find any recipe for "Kafta Bi Sanieh", Lebanese or otherwise. I suspect it should be Kibbeh Bi Sanieh, also spelled Kibbet Bu Sanieh. Rmhermen 19:39, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

There are both Kafta bi sanieh and Kibbeh bi saniyeh. The kafta bi sanieh are meatballs with parsley flavor, and it is cooked in the tray (saniyeh) with potato and tomato, and in the end you eat it with rice. While the kebbeh bi saniyeh is fine meat put in the tray all over like a pie with pine seeds inside. A lebanese who knows 89.133.155.74 (talk) 23:52, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Concerning the merge, I completely disagree of merging Labneh, because, even though it is a cousin to many other recipes, it is very specific to Lebanon and held almost as a national symbol, and the name should be respected as Labneh. Even the -eh- suffix pronunciation is the Lebanese dialect way. The name is derived from Laban (yoghurt), which also means white, hence comes the name of Lebanon for it's snow peaked mountains. So basically, Labneh is deeply entrenched in the Lebanese collective conscience. A lebanese who knows 89.133.155.74 (talk) 23:58, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Bulgarian yoghurt

This section is interesting but never says anything about being strained. If it isn't then why is it on this page? 24.124.29.130 10:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Dahi?

In India, dahi seems to refer to plain old yoghurt, which (at least in Delhi) is usually runnier than typical Western yoghurts, not strained. I'm sure there are also strained varieties of the stuff, but eg. this and this recipe for dahi do not involve straining at all. Jpatokal 09:59, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

I've heard of strained yoghurt referred to as chakka or chakka dahi. Would a native Hindi speaker care to comment on this? Dforest (talk) 07:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Dahi refers to yoghurt or curd, Chakka is strained yoghurt, used to make shrikhand.--Redtigerxyz (talk) 07:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)