Talk:Storming of the Bastille

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Contents 1 Holiday Inn 2 "Storming" 3 What about the Marquis de Sade? 4 Freemasonry 5 Casualties 6 merging this with Bastille article? 7 Vandalism 8 Armed Conflict 9 its fall effectively marked the beginning of the French Revolution 10 neutrality 11 Arithmetic

[edit] Holiday Inn

I have a creeping suspicion that "Holiday Inn" is not the correct term you want in the last paragraph of the "armed conflict" section, or whatever it's called. (anon 31 Jan 2005)

Looks like what happened here is that 17:45, Nov 18, 2004, User:Didactohedron, meaning to revert vandalism, actually restored vandalism. And I, and probably others, seeing an edit from an excellent contributor with the remark "reverting vandalism" naturally assumed that we had nothing we needed to check on. -- Jmabel | Talk 07:00, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC)

Yes, that was my fault. That particular modification had previously been introduced by a series of anon edits on November 15, was reverted by me, and again reintroduced by me in the process of my revert of another anon user's vandalism. I have no idea how this happened, since as far as I can tell the "reversion" which reintroduced the error does not correstpond exactly to any of the prior versions of the article. -Didactohedron 09:12, Feb 1, 2005 (UTC):)

---

hi sophie

This is more of a history question, but maybe the article (or a related one) should be clarified to explain. In the quote, "This very night all the Swiss and German battalions will leave the Champ de Mars to massacre us all," it is the only time I can see mention of the Swiss and the Germans' participation in the French Revolution. Or did I miss some reference to them in the "causes" article? Please help; I'm eager to learn, yet confused! --Schwael 06:32, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

The military of ancien regime France had several battallions composed of foreign mercenaries. This was common practice at the time, and still persists, for example, in the Pope's Swiss Guards. Because they had little involvement in the day-to-day life of the country, their loyalty was more firmly to the king. Many of the French troops were caught up in the same revolutionary passions that were sweeping the rest of the country; the Swiss and German soldiers generally were not. See, for example 10th of August (French Revolution). -- Jmabel | Talk 18:01, Mar 2, 2005 (UTC)

Interesting! Thanks! I guess now the question is just, is it necissary to add a few words to this article to explain? --Schwael 14:17, 3 Mar 2005 (UTC)

I'll sneak something in. -- Jmabel | Talk 17:44, Mar 3, 2005 (UTC)

Looks great! --Schwael 01:27, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

[edit] "Storming"

Anyone have any idea why the phrase is always "stormed"? I've always wondered. Deltabeignet 23:22, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Well it may be a reflection of the 'Bias'* of history: From Feynnman's Farewell to Reason (I'm a noob so this is the ISBNs that I found ISBN 0-86091-185-5 or ISBN 0-860191-895-3 Pbk) in Footnote 45 from the Notes on relativism chapter: " Ilya Ehrenburg (People and Life, Memoirs of 1891-1917, London 1961, p.8) writes as follow about the 'French Revolution' (retranslated from German): "The Images which authors hand over to later generations are formalized and occasionally completely contrary to the truth ... There is sometimes talk about the 'Storming of the Bastille' though in reality the Bastille was not stormed by anyone - 11 July 1789 was merely one episode in the French Revolution; the people of Paris entered the prision without difficulty and found there only a few prisioners. But just this capture of the Bastille became the national holiday of the revolution" " So maybe the verb 'Storming' reflects the 'emotion/feeling/situacion/experience' that wanted to be portrayed by a group of people in accordance to their interesets which achieved 'power/mass diffusion/mass acceptance' and was remebered as such. PuercoPop

Good explanation, I completely agree. WinterSpw 05:35, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] What about the Marquis de Sade?

If there were only seven prisoners, and allegedly Sade had been in the Bastille since 1784, where was he when the storming happened? Some accounts say he was released from the Bastille in 1790. So did they just leave him in there, or what? (anon 15 July 2005)

• He was transferred out about 2 weeks before that. This used to be in the article, you can look through the history and find out why it was removed. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:37, July 16, 2005 (UTC)
• You can find it mentioned here. My own inclination would be to mention him in this article, because he was imprisoned there until so shortly beforehand, and was far more famous than anyone who was actually freed. -- Jmabel | Talk 01:39, July 16, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Freemasonry

The remark about Camille Desmoulins being "a known freemason from the lodge of the Nine Sisters" was made anonymously without citation. At about the same time, at Estates-General of 1789 a similar remark was made by User:Melkart about Mirabeau. I am not sure of the accuracy or relevance of either statement; barring citation, I am inclined to revert, but will leave a chance for comment first. -- Jmabel | Talk 00:13, August 27, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Casualties

Ok than, am I the only one who notices this? The casualties are seriously screwed up. Now, I CAN believe that the Invalids mangaged the kill several of the milita. But it only says that there was ONE solitary death for the Royalists. Apparently, in the eyes of the casualty box, the parisian milita began rioting outside the fortress, De Launay orders his men to fire, several milita are killed, some of the French regulars defect to the revolutionaries, they fire a cannon at the Bastile, killing absolutely nobody, than the rebels get into the fortress, and to quote the History Channel "tear into the guards with knives and pikes." In doing this, the guards kill several more rebels, but the rebels cannot even HURT one of the guards, that De Launay surrenders for no apparent reason, the rebels shoot and stab him anyway, and to top it off they cut his head off, and they let the rest of the garrison go on a charming walk back to their homes.

Because THAT is what the casualty box shows (Revolutionaries:98/Royalists:1) At BEST the article leaves out the executions that befell most of the garrison. At worst, It is simply being unexcuasably unrealistic. I happen to believe the latter.

Now, I am usually the VERY, VERY LAST person to come to support the combat poweress of untrained, slimly controlable, hardly armed rioters, but the fact is that they were not complete idiots, they obviously killed far more than De Launay.

For This Reason, I request a rewrite. ELV —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.146.147.150 (talk • contribs) 27 December 2006.

• Suggest that you check the remainder of the article below the casualty box. A number of first hand accounts of the fall of the Bastille have survived. Only one of the defenders was killed during the actual fighting. This was because they were sheltering behind the walls of a massive medieval fortress. By contrast the attackers were in the open and sustained losses. After the fortress surrendered all three of the officers of the company of Invalides (soldier-pensioners) that made up the permanent garrison of the Bastille were killed by the mob. Suriving police reports detail their wounds and clothing. They wore officers' uniforms which would have made them a target for the mob. The unfortunate Governor was in "coloured" i.e. civilian dress, had been seen by the attackers during an abortive attempt at negotiations, and was easily identified. Two of the Invalides were lynched - reportedly because they had been more active in firing from the battlements than their fellows. The most effective defence of the Bastille was that mounted by the Swiss detachment from the Salis-Samade Regiment sent to reinforce the garrison. The Swiss grenadiers had been firing from loopholes at ground level and were not immediately the target of attack after the surrender (according to one account they had discarded their distinctive red coats and were initially taken to be warders or other prison staff). The Gardes Francais (French Guards) then intervened and escorted the Swiss and surviving Invalides through the crowd to their barracks. The Swiss were held under guard and then released to rejoin their regiment a day or so later. Their officer wrote a detailed report in which he states that two of his men were still missing, presumed killed. They may however have simply deserted or become lost in the chaos of the day. There is no suggestion in any eye witness reports that the majority of the garrison were executed. Overall the Paris mob seems to have behaved with greater restraint than during subsequent occasions such as the storming of the Tuileries in August 1792 (when over 600 Swiss Guards were massacred) or the September Massacres that followed. Credit for the relatively limited number of killings after the Bastille fell is probably mainly due to the readiness of the Gardes Francais to protect their prisoners. Buistr 20:59, 1 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] merging this with Bastille article?

In some sections, the two articles (Bastille and Storming of the Bastille are almost identical. Any thoughts on merging the two articles? --Syrthiss 19:17, August 31, 2005 (UTC).

I'm inclined to keep them separate, if only because either might grow considerably. Duplication in this case is not a problem, Wiki is not paper. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:30, September 1, 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

I performed a few edits (the last few ones) but forgot to a) log in on the first one and b) write what i edited. so i'd just like to let you guys know that i restored the background section and necker's dismissal which were entirely missing from the current version - Sai the Explorer 23:33, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Armed Conflict

it may be just me, but the ARMED CONFLICT is kind of hard to understand.

[edit] its fall effectively marked the beginning of the French Revolution

It did???!!! What about the estates general and the tennis court oath? This is such a simplistic statement as to be absurd.

[edit] neutrality

this article seems biased in favor of the royal troops... 66.66.18.139 (talk) 01:02, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Arithmetic

1% Nobility, 2% Catholic Church leaders (implicitly not their followers) and 97% bourgeoisie. Can anyone help me with 97+2+1 and explain where the peasantry, the labourers and those in domestic service have gone? Steve H (talk) 15:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)