User talk:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal4

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[edit] Proposal 1

I've posted a draft to replace the current intro. Like any article, the lede of a bio should establish the notability of the subject. The rest of the intro should then cover the main points of the subject's life. The conclusion can offer an evaluation.

The current intro does not even mention the subject's main "claim to fame": his leadership of the DLM. At the same time it has too many details. For example, while it's verifiable that the followers in the West in the early 1970s were mostly hippies that's not a detail that needs to be in this intro.

I've omitted the sources for ease of editing, but I don't think there are any assertions that are unciteable. I'm open to fleshing it out a bit more, but I'd urge editors to keep it short and on point. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I like the idea of a tight lead, but not at the expense of missing important information. In addition, the proposal contains several factually inaccurate statements. I look forward to other proposals from other editors, I may try my hand at it as well. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, omitting the sources is not a good idea, as the lead is likely to be a highly contested debate, and we need these to back up the text per WP:LEAD, [it] should be carefully sourced as appropriate ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:45, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I would like to write my proposal based on some of your text, but I will wait until sources are added before I do so. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:50, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The sources are omitted for ease of writing and can be added later. What inaccuracies are there? What material should be added? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:24, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not happy with the assertion that Rawat's teachings "became more universal", which was carried over from the previous version. That appears to be a value judgment and it isn't in the source. Can anyone suggest a better formulation? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:32, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
It is OR.... we could say "More Westernized" or "Lost many of their emphasis on Indian Culture"... something along those lines. Hohohahaha (talk) 18:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
At first sight, I like the proposal. Tight and neutral. Couldn't see any obvious factual errors (which does not necessarily mean there aren't any, just that I didn't spot them). One, perhaps; according to Melton, he must have had 250,000+ followers in the US, so we could say "hundreds of thousands" rather than "tens of thousands". (Melton says that at the end of the seventies, 80 percent of the membership had left the Mission, which left 50,000+ in the US and 1,000,000+ worldwide.) But then I note Melton's figures don't stack up with the other figures we have in the article. Perhaps he just got it wrong. --Jayen466 23:06, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't recall any one say that the DLM more than 100,000 followers in the West. IIRC, the highest figure I've seen is something like 70,000. I think Melton may have meant that the following was reduced 80% from 50,000, down to a presumed 10,000. But since reliable sources give numbers all over the map it seems safest for the intro to stay vague. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
The factual inaccuracies are (a) who become prominent as the leader of the Divine Light Mission (DLM) and the Elan Vital. His prominence was related to his age (he was 13 when he arrived to the West), and that relevant information is missing. Also, he did not played/plays a "leadership" role post DLM. Elan Vital is just a small organization that organizes events he speaks at. (b) Internal conflicts and negative publicity led to a reorganization of the DLM. that seems to be OR; (c) He did not create[d] the Elan Vital as a replacement for the DLM; our sources say that he disbanded the DLM, closed the ashrams, and relinquished control of the organization. (d) He did not dropped titles such as "Lord of the Universe" ; he never called himself that. What he did is to refer to himself as Maharaji, rather than Guru Maharaj Ji, as per our sources, as well as dropping the religious trappings imported from India. (e) was proclaimed the "satguru" ("Perfect Master"), which source would you use for that statement? Also, who proclaimed that is missing. Also missing is that fact that he founded in 2001 The Prem Rawat Foundation, which carries his name. So, as I said above, once you add sources to your proposal, I will give it a try and use it for the basis for mine. If you have no intention to do so soon, please let me know and I will start from scratch. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
A) Every early mention of the subject mentions the Divine Light Mission. It was in his role as guru of that group that he became prominent. I don't recall seeing anyone say that he became prominent simply because he was 13, though his youth and other personal aspects were almost always noted. "Pudgy" and "boy guru" are epithets that frequently appear. However I think the intro is better off without that info. We can include it in the body of the article though. I disagree that the Elan Vital isn't important enough for the intro. IIRC, Rawat is listed as the spiritual head of both the DLM and EV (at least in the U.S. B) There were internal conflicts and there was negative publicity. Following those there was retrenchment and reorganization. We can unpack those more, and mention the 80% loss in following. I'm pretty sure we've got sources that connect the internal conflicts with the split between Indian and Western branches. C) "Relinquished control of the organization"? I don't recall reading that. If he didn't disband the DLM then who did? D) The "Lord of the Universe" is a title often used to refer to Rawat by followers in that era, so it'd help readers to include it. His organization called him that. We could say instead that "he stopped having people call him..." We can also say that he dropped claims of divinity. E) Most accounts don't say exactly who recognized him as Perfect Master. However it'd be correct to say it was done by his followers. F) The TPRF isn't that notable. He didn't establish it himself and he doesn't sit on the board. It's already mentioned in the article but I don't think it's important enough for the intro. I'll prepare a second draft to address some of these issues. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


Also, sumptuous needs to be replaced. What exact words do the sources use? Hohohahaha (talk) 18:38, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

  • That phrase was in the previous version. The sources for it say:
    • Earlier this month, the guru's mother issued a statement in New Delhi saying she had disowned her son because of his pursuit of "a despicable, nonspiritual way of life." [...] Sources close to Rajeshwari Devi said she was upset because of her son's materialistic lifestyle, including a fondness for expensive homes and sports cars, and because of his marriage last year to his secretary.
    • Leaving his more ascetic life behind him, he does not personally eschew material possessions. Over time, critics have focused on what appears to be his opulent lifestyle and argue that it is supported largely by the donations of his followers.
  • I'd be happy to change "sumptuous" to "opulent, materialistic" to better reflect the sources. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:16, 31 May 2008 (UTC) (PS: There are several sources that use the word "opulent". It appears to be a common description.) ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:58, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

@Will Beback. I read your comments and disagree with them in princple. As you seem not to want to add sources to your proposal, I will start a new proposal that would attempt to take the best from all other previous versions. After all, these were in the article in one way or another. Also, I would remind editors that a lead needs to summarize the article, and not, as it seems from the arguments made, create an introduction that does not reflect the contents of the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk)

I'm not opposed to adding sources, it's just that they are very cumbersome to work with while drafting. If anyone has a question about sources we can answer them here for the time being. I've posted a new draft that addresses many of your concerns posted above. Of course, everyone is welcome to post other proposals. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:39, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Jossi's point E:
  • Guru Maharaj Ji taught very similar ideas and practices to his Western followers. He was Satguru, or "Perfect Master;" only his power could initiate one into Knowledge, which alone among spiritual methods could reveal God. DuPertuis 1986, p. 116
  • Among the most common titles given to the leader of the Divine Light Mission are those of guru, satguru, and Perfect Master. Saliba 1980, p.71
  • Guru Maharaj Ji himself talks about a succession of perfect masters preceding and following him.13 Since there can be only one Perfect Master living at one particular time, it follows that Maharaj Ji is the satguru of our times. Saliba 1980, p.73
  • He admits bluntly he is the Perfect Master, that most supreme energy, which can refer to nothing else but to God. Saliba 1980, p.75
  • Guru Maharaj Ji became the Perfect Master when he was eight years old...He became Guru when liis father died. Waterloo Daily Courier, Waterloo, Iowa July 21, 1972
  • He is termed a "perfect Master — one who teaches perfect truth — a title inherited at the age of eight from his late father who had founded the movement in 1960 in India. GEORGE W. CORNELL AP Religion Writer
Melton and Edwards make the point that, in some respects at least, Rawat assumed for himself the title of Perfect Master:
  • Rawat...who was but eight when he was recognized as the new "Perfect Master" and assumed the title Maharaj Ji...He assumed the role of Perfect Master at his father's funeral by telling the disciples who had gathered,"Dear Children of God, why are you weeping? Haven't you learned the lesson that your Master taught you? The Perfect Master never dies. Maharah Ji is here, amongst you now. Recognize Him, obey Him, worship Him." Melton 1992 p.218
  • ...at age nine he gave himself the title of Perfect Master at his father's funeral. He was two years later recognized as the new "Perfect master", an embodiment of God on earth and therefore worthy of veneration. He assumed the title of Maharaj Ji. Edwards 2001, p. 278
So maybe instead of saying that he "was proclaimed the "satguru" ("Perfect Master")", we should say, something more like "he assumed the role of "satguru" ("Perfect Master"). ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:37, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
Here are two more sources along the same lines:
  • Following his father's death, Maharaji announced himself as the new guru... Chryssides 2001, p. 210
  • When his father died in 1966, the Guru Maharaji announced himself the new master and started ihs own teaching. Hunt, 2003, p.115
So maybe attributing the recognition to him would be appropriate. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 08:09, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Ready?

It's been several days since the last comment. If there are no objections I'll suggest that this material be added to the article. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I object.Momento (talk) 10:23, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Could you state why you object please, and add an alternate proposal? Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 11:06, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
    • Is it Proposal 1 you want to add? Bad idea. It says "Internal conflicts and negative publicity led to a reorganization of the DLM." Who says so? and "In the late 1970s and early '80s he closed the ashrams, dropped titles such as "Lord of the Universe" and "Guru"." Very wrong, he never picked up the Lord title in the first place, he could not drop it. I support Proposal 6. It is short and to the point and says what needs to be said. We are surely not writing a book here. Rumiton (talk) 14:19, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • What's the difference betwen Prop4 and Prop6? They appear to be identical. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:51, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
There are several grammatical and word changes. I think 6 is superior to 4.Momento (talk) 00:33, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I see no discussion of the benefits of Prop. 4/6 over Prop. 5. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Prop.5

I've posted User:Steve Crossin/Mediation/Prem Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal 5, which builds on Prop.2, incorporates Prop.3, and adds sources. Comments? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 10:36, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Not good either. How do we know that tens of thousand of people called him Lord of the Universe? Bad writing and bad encyclopedia making. Rumiton (talk) 14:21, 5 June 2008 (UTC) Also I see "...with Rawat retaining control of the DLM in the West, which lost most of its members." Clearly implying that his taking over control was the reason for the loss of members. No good at all. Rumiton (talk) 14:39, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Not good, Will. Not good. As I said previously, the lead will be probably the most contentious of all proposals. I would suggest to complete the other areas of discussion and leaving this discussion to be the last project in the mediation. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 15:57, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
  • If editors have specific complaints they can be addressed. There's no reason so leave a lousy intro, which we have now, up for months while we negotiate over details elsewhere. I've made two edits to address Rumitons concerns. See [1]. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
I agree with Jossi. The lead should be left until the article is stable.Momento (talk) 22:00, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
If editors don't want to participate in editing this article then that's their right. But I don't see any good reason for saying that certain parts are off-limits for the forseeable future. This article has never been stable, and saying that some edits should wait until it's stable is another way of saying they should never be made. There is a proposal, Prop.5, being proposed. Specific objections that can be addressed are welcome. Assertions that some edits should wait are not helpful. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:LEAD "The lead serves both as an introduction to the article below and as a short, independent summary of the important aspects of the article's topic". Since the article is in flux, it makes sense to wait until the article is finished before attempting the lead. In addition, since the proposals we are discussing were randomly chosen, there is already a great deal of the article that are "off-limits" to editing.Momento (talk) 23:49, 5 June 2008 (UTC)
The article is no more in flux now than it has ever been. Again, if you don't want to participate then you're welcome to watch. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:08, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Please be civil. Making suggestions as to how to proceed is part of the discussion process and consensus. That two involved editors have a different opinion to yours shouldn't be dismissed as a failure to participate.Momento (talk) 00:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
I haven't said anything uncivil. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 00:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
Your repeated characterization of my opinion, that the lead proposal should wait, as that I "don't want to participate in editing this article" and if I "don't want to participate then you're welcome to watch" is a fabrication of my position and "personally-targeted, belligerent behavior".Momento (talk) 01:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
My apologies if you were offended. Now let's get back to improving the intro. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 01:12, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I might further elaborate prop.3, which I'd base on prop.5. The issues I'd try to solve are these (non-limitative, just the the ones that immediately drew my attention):

  • "[In the late 1970s and early '80s Rawat] ... disbanded the DLM." - "disbanding" DLM is at least factually incorrect, technically it was renamed (to Elan Vital), and then technically, at the time there was still a DLM in India, where nothing was "disbanded" by Rawat (how could *Rawat* have disbanded Indian DLM?). Western DLM and Elan Vital related ashrams were probably "disbanded", although also there reformation into Elan Vital centres would probably be more correct. As far as I understand primarily the *community life* aspect of the Mission-related houses was disbanded. For all the other aspects "disbanding" seems an overstatement to me (although there are of course sources - notably Geaves 2006 - that make that overstatement). I'm not saying all this needs to be elaborated in the lead section, but a summary "... disbanded the DLM" is too far off the mark as a lead section summary imho. I'd try to find a phrasing that gives the facts, without adding interpretation that is only shared by a limited part of the sources.
  • "In June 1971, he left India for the West. There he became the subject of substantial media attention and attracted tens of thousands of devotees. Followers called him the "Lord of the Universe". He made his home in the U.S. and began touring and teaching worldwide." - something about the time sequence: as far as I understand Rawat "began touring and teaching worldwide" from June 1971, why is it stated that he only *began* touring & teaching worldwide after he had made his home in the U.S.? (or said otherwise: as it is written currently it seems to suggest that between June 1971, when Rawat went to the UK, and a few weeks later, when he made his home in the U.S., he would have been doing something else than touring & teaching)

--Francis Schonken (talk) 11:16, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

    • Most of this seems to me unnecessary detail for the lead, though I agree nothing misleading should be there. Maybe when we get to it in the body of the article it should be stated that he "greatly reduced the size of the western DLM, then changed its name to Elan Vital." I think that agrees with most sources. The "touring and teaching" stuff can be easily sorted out. Rumiton (talk) 14:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm not aware of any source that says Rawat "greatly reduced the size of he Wester DLM". That implies it was intentional. What would be a source for that? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It certainly was intentional. I will leave it to others to source that. Rumiton (talk) 15:48, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal 7.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Steve_Crossin/Mediation/Prem_Rawat/Proposal4#Proposal_7

Apologies Steve - I lost the background colour. I've attempted to deal with the chronology issues which I agree with Francis are a significant problem. The residual footnote numbering is from Proposal 5, I think all those should cover the material but I've concentrated on getting an historically consistent wording, so some of the references may be out of line. I've rejected the Proposal 3. construction of "associated with organizations" which has too many possible interpretations to be helpful. I disagree with those who want to leave the lede in abeyance until some notional time in the future, the lede should stand as an identification of what is important in the article and even at the level of a work in progress it should be possible to achieve some consensus on what is important enough to be in the lede. --Nik Wright2 (talk) 13:43, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

  • Maybe, Nik, but I doubt it. As the article progresses, the nature of the new material will be dictated by what is already there. That's in the nature of most writing, let alone a group effort like this. You don't really know how the thing will end up until you get there. I think Proposal 6 works as a skeletal structure. If we accept that, we can agree to modify it if later edits make that desirable. Rumiton (talk) 13:55, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • We can rewrite the intro again later as needed. Prop 6 has many problems. If you'd like to start a discussion on its advantages you're welcome to do so. As for prop 7, it looks OK to me. I can fix the references if that's agreeable to Nik. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:26, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • A minor quibble: "Organisations which have considered Rawat as variously their leader or inspiration include Divine Light Mission ..." seems unnecessarily wordy. How about "Rawat's organisations have included Divine Light Mission..."? They're undoubtedly his organisations, though the exact relationship is often vague or indirect. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:38, 6 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Will, yes, please do feel free to fix the references and I'm entirely happy with the amended construction you suggest. Do you want to go ahead and create a new Prop. with that amendment and fixed refs ? Or is there a better way forward ?--Nik Wright2 (talk) 09:13, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Prop 7 contains phrases like, "Rawat attracted tens of thousands of devotees who called him the "Lord of the Universe",and "although he sought to take a more active role in guiding the by then international Divine Light Mission movement,[62] the movement was split by conflicts within the Rawat family." And this "looks OK to you"? I can't believe you are not joking. This is a million miles from neutrality, and you are not going to get a consensus on it. Rumiton (talk) 15:47, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Prop. 5 used slightly different language, which was intended to adress your concerns. There he became the subject of substantial media attention and attracted tens of thousands of devotees. Followers called him the "Lord of the Universe".[61] He made his home in the U.S. and began touring and teaching worldwide. When he turned 16 in 1974, Rawat married and took a more active role in guiding the movement.[62] Family conflicts split the movement with Rawat retaining control of the DLM in the West. The DLM lost most of its members after the mid-1970s.[63] Would using that text instead be sufficient? If not, what exact changes do you want? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:46, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It's getting better, but is still not right. "An Indian-American" seems like a racial characterisation to me. The article states that he was born in India and now lives in the US. This is neutral and OK. I don't have time tonight for any more. Rumiton (talk) 14:40, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Actually, Rumiton, I think Indian American is neutral. It's along the lines of "Asian American," "Native American," "Polish American," etc. It's how people are described (and describe themselves) after they become citizens of the U.S. having been born elsewhere. There's no slant of any kind by using the term. The hyphen between Indian and American isn't necessary, however. Give it some thought.  :) Sylviecyn (talk) 14:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
I may be too sensitive. In Australia we would not say Indian-Australian, it would be insulting. We are all Australians, which is a multi culture. We may be too sensitive. Rumiton (talk) 16:04, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • This proposal has so many problems that it is simply not worthy of addressing. It is a mishmash that does not represent a summary of the article. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:26, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • Rawat is an Indian American. That's how we'd refer to any similarly bornand emigrated individual. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 18:56, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • No, he is not. He was born in India and naturalized as a US citizen. Indian American's are those of Indian ancestry, usually referring to second generations of Indian nationals. Not a big deal, though. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 22:43, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • "Indian Americans are Americans who are of Indian ancestry. " He is an American of Indian ancestry. It is standard in WP bios to list the nationality/ethnicity of subjects in the first line. It's also standard to describe their chief claim to notability. The current intro does neither and that's why it need to be changed. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 22:59, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
  • What is the source for "critics have referred to [...] an opulent, materialistic lifestyle"? If that is the mother, you cannot say "critics", you have to attribute it to her. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal 0

So far, I see no proposals that improve on Proposal #0, which is the most neutral and factually accurate than all new attempts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:23, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal 8

Not perfect, but a good neutral summary of an encyclopedic article on the subject. It needs polishing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:10, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

It's closer than P6, but it has substantial problems and isn't neutral
A) "His "Knowledge" consists of techniques described as capable to obtain stillness, peace, and contentment within the individual. Source? Why do we say this Knowledge is "his"? Wouldn't we just say "His teachings include techniques that he says bring stillness, peace, and contentment?"
B) In 1966 at the age of eight, after his father death, Rawat succeeded him as the spiritual head of the movement India, when he was proclaimed "satguru" ("Perfect Master") by his followers. That appears clumsier than In 1966 at the age of eight, Rawat succeeded his father as spiritual head of the DLM in India, when he was proclaimed the "satguru" ("Perfect Master"). Why the change?
C) ...where he became the subject of substantial media attention due to his youth and the exuberant claims of his followers. Source?
D) ...his teachings became more universal... Source?
E) In 2001 he founded The Prem Rawat Foundation to contribute to global humanitarian efforts and to promote his message, which is now available world-wide via print, TV, cable and satellite. Too much attention to a very minor and barely notable vanity foundation. OTOH, the DLM should be mentioned in the first paragraph, as it's the organization that brought Rawat to fame.
F) why sumptuous unstead of opulent, materialistic?
Overall, I don't see this as an improvement over P7. It contains too many non-neutral assertions and poor emphasis. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 23:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)
A- OK with your wording
B- Because it is accurate as per sources. He was proclaimed satguru by his followers.
C- Do you dispute this? It is factually accurate: he was 13 years of age(!) when he arrived to the West. There are multiple sources that attest to this
D- I will change that. My proposal does not have that text. (?)
E- A foundation that he founded lending his name is not significant? Of course it is. Your opinion of being a "vanity" foundation, is your opinion alone.
F- Why "opulent, materialistic"? "Sumptuous" is as good as the other adjectives. Per Merriam-Webster: extremely costly, rich, luxurious, or magnificent.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 02:46, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Also note that the source attributed to "critics" for opulent, materialistic is Mata Ji, after the family rift, a massive WP:REDFLAG. This, from a person that before the rift described her son as divine... Do you have other sources from "critics" that assert that opinion? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:09, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

<< Any and all sources that describe the subject from a biographical point of view (which in case anybody has forgotten is the subject of this article) refer to the PR's age when arriving to the West as one of the most notable aspects of this person's life.

  • Hunt: The leader of the Divine Light Mission, the Guru Maharaji, was 13 years old when he spectacularly rose to fame in the early 1970's
  • Barret: "The Guru Maharaj Ji was only 13 when he sprang to prominence as leader of the Divine Light Mission
  • Melton: The arrival in the United States in 1971 of a 13 year old religious leader from India was met with some ridicule but, more importantly, an extraordinary amount of interest from young adults who were willing to seriously examine his claims of being able to impart direct knowledge of God. From that initial support, Guru Maharaj Ji was able to establish a flourishing American branch of the Divine Light Mission.
  • Messer: Guru Maharaj Ji is most easily described as a boy guru, successor to his father's disciples, who was persuaded to bring his movement to the West by a handful of Western devotees who had discovered him in India. Since August 9, 1971, more than eighty thousand Americans have become his devotees. East and West, the movement itself is called the Divine Light Mission.

I can add more if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The issue is not his age, the issue here is saying that his fame was due to his age. None of these sources say that he "he became the subject of substantial media attention due to his youth". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
What is the source for "he became the subject of substantial media attention"? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:28, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
As for "sumptuous" that was discussed earlier on this page and another editor specifically asked us to find something better. Mata Ji's comments are undoubtedly criticisms. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The text in your proposal speak of "critics", when it is actually the mother, not "critics". Such criticism needs to be attributed, and if found to be just the mother, I will remove from the lead per WP:REDFLAG. If there are any other "critics" that talk about an "opulent, materialistic" lifestyle, please provide sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
As for point B, what is your source? We have several sources that say he proclaimed himself guru. We already discussed this above. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
There are plenty of sources that say otherwise. We will need to find wording that accommodates the competing viewpoints. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:26, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
As for the organizations, there's no question that the DLM (which had over six million members) is more important to the notabilty of the subeject that the TPRF (which has no members and only gets the publicity that it pays for). If you have a conflict of interstest over this organization I don't think you should be promoting it. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 04:30, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I would ask you for the second time to keep your opinions to yourself which have no bearings in this discussion. You want to hold the opinion that TPRF is a "vanity" foundation, that "pays for publicity", please keep it to yourself! The Foundation is a pubic charity and there are plenty of verifiable sources. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:24, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I think one thing we can all agree on is that "he arrived to the West as a boy guru" is awful. Let's change it to "he arrived to the West as a 13 year old with millions of followers". Being a 13 year old is normal, being a 13 year old with millions of followers is something to write about. "Sumptuous" is archaic, the usual expression is a "materialistic lifestyle".Momento (talk) 05:15, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
He arrived as a boy guru and he was referred as such. I see no problem with this, although as said before the text needs polishing. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The millions of followers didn't accompany him to the West. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:13, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
That's right. But nor was he born or became a guru in the west. If he'd had ten followers no one would have cared but he was a phenomena.Momento (talk) 09:21, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • I'd suggest finding a source that backs up what you are saying, it would probably help your viewpoint. Steve Crossin (talk)(email)
[E/C] I think P8 isn't worth spending a lot of time fixing. It's got so many problems, some of which are outlined above. I again ask for improvements to P5, which has a better basis and avoids making POV claims or using language like "boy guru". ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:27, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Nah. P5, as expressed above has no chance whatsoever as it stands. I will continue working on this version and accommodate the feedback given. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:18, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Objections to P5 have been addressed as they've been raised. Let's keep working on it. Despite your claim, your P9 does not accomodate the feedback you've received. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:37, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
I have accommodated all your requests that were feasible, and challenged others, which you have not responded to ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:32, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal #9

This proposal, based on Proposal #8 includes fixes requests made above by several editors. I have withdrawn proposal #8 and will continue working on the basis of this one. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:22, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

  • I can't see the differences without closely examining the sections. Not being lazy, but could someone point them out? I noticed the change from sumptuous to materialistic, were there others? Steve Crossin (talk)(email) 17:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
  • It appears to repeat text that I complained about above. How is this progress? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 19:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
It has accommodated most, if not all of your requests. If there is anything else that you don't like, please say so with a substantive argument. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 21:33, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Can you explain how it accomodates the requests? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:44, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Do we need to put all a Rawat's names in the lead? It doesn't read well and can be handled in the text, anyone searching with those names will be redirected anyway. And a following in "many countries" seems a bit vague, with materials available in more the 80 countries, it is either "world wide" or "in more than 80 countries". Momento (talk) 22:25, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Names are usually placed in th lead, Momento. As per "many countries" or 80 countries, I have no particular preference. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:02, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
Having said that, there is no specific policy to list all names of a person in the lead. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)
The lead "should be written in a clear, accessible style so as to invite a reading of the full article". Having all those names reads very badly and aren't necessary. Imagine G.W.Bush was (also called Mr. President, Commander in Chief, G.W., 43, Dubya)? Balyogeshwar (India only) and Sant Ji (35 years old) should be handled in the text. Anyone searching using those names get re-directed anyway. Likewise with the organizations, they're not important enough for the lead. If we want this lead to be "clear and accessible", we need to edit it with that as the criteria.Momento (talk) 01:26, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
See Wikipedia:Manual of Style (biographies). Alternate names belong in the intro. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:45, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Also this is the Indian Wikipedia too. Far more people speak English in India than in Australia and the U.K. combined. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 02:52, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Alternate names may belong in the intro but Balyogeshwar and Sant Ji are neither alternates nor names. They are given titles that haven't been used in years. Maharaji and formerly Guru Maharaj Ji are also titles but Rawat has chosen to use them as pseudonyms, one current and one former, which should appear after his legal name.Momento (talk) 04:27, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Those are the names and titles that he's been called. It doesn't matter when they were used. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 05:14, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
"Sant Ji" and "Bolyogeshwar" were names Prem Rawat was also known as, (a/k/a) in the western countries, including the U.S. Rawat signed letters and DLM published magazines as "Sant Ji Maharaji," even after he was an emancipated minor and married. We've already had this discussion many, many times in the past, please let's not delay the progress here by making believe we haven't discussed it. All the names Rawat's been known as should be included. Sylviecyn (talk) 10:30, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Also, did the source say "sumptuous" or "materialistic?" Thanks. Sylviecyn (talk) 10:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

<<< WP:MOSBIO does not force us to use all nicknames, aliases, honorary titles, etc. in the lead. We can simply list the legal name, followed by the most notable names (Maharaji and Guru Maharaj Ji). All others can go in the text. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:05, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Or we can leave out self-given titles entirely and just list his legal name. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 17:49, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
That could work. The other names can be introduced in the chronology. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:55, 10 June 2008 (UTC)
Rawat has referred innumerable times to Guru Maharaji and Maharaji, never to Balyogeshwar and not in 30 years to Sant Ji. He still calls himself Maharaji as per his website therefore Maharaji should be included in the lead as his current alternate name and Guru Maharaj Ji as his former.Momento (talk) 07:07, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Also "Over the years, several organizations have considered Rawat as their leader or inspiration" is not suitable for the lead. One, who cares what these organizations think? And two, they get a minor mention in the article. And " In 1966 at the age of eight, Rawat's father died" is ambiguous. It can read that Rawat's father died "in 1966 at the age of eight". I'm happy to make these changes.Momento (talk) 07:56, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
And finally, as per Will's reminder that there are more English speakers in India than the UK, the lead is too western. Rawat didn't become "prominent in the 1970s when he arrived in the West as a 13 year-old guru", he became prominent when he became a guru to five million followers in India at the age of 8.Momento (talk) 09:44, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
That seems to imply his father was eight. And those organizations are the source/context of his notability. Leaving them out of the lede would be like not mentioning Standard Oil in the lede of Rockefeller's bio. Good point about India. I'll work on that in the next draft. ·:· Will Beback ·:· 09:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Seems overwordy, but if all these factors need to be included in the lead (clearly I don't think they do) it needs even more information. We need to be told who his father was, and how he started the Indian DLM and had x million followers, otherwise the significance of his death is unclear. Rumiton (talk) 14:42, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Rumiton: you can copy/paste this proposal and create a new proposal in which you can present your ideas for these fixes. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:01, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Proposal 10

I have tried to answer Rumiton's concerns and my own. Mainly removing Balyogeshwar and Sant Ji that aren't "alternate names" or pseudonyms. Reducing and tidying the text. Bringing forward his claim to notability to being a guru at 8, including the millions of followers and removing the ambiguity of his father's death. I have removed the organization as per Rockefeller - John Davison Rockefeller's article mentions Standard oil in the lead, JDR II's article mentions SO in the lead only as "the son of JDR the founder of Standard Oil" and JDR III doesn't mention it at all in the lead despite their obvious involvement. DUO, RVK and EV are only briefly mentioned and shouldn't be in the lead.Momento (talk) 03:44, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Could you please break these into sentences? Adding the sources would also help. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 05:18, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
It will need some work still, but it's not horrible. You mention him being 13 twice, I don't think that's necessary in the lead (well, unless he was 13 twice! :) ). I have not found any major article or book on PR that does not reference EV or DLM, and they are a very strong part of what helped make him a notable figure. I think those need to be in the lead. The sentence about TPRW sounds a whole lot like a press release. -- Maelefique (talk) 06:08, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Not horrible? I'm flattered. I've removed the redundant 13 and worked in DLM and EV. I was hoping that as this is the lead, we could leave the citeing to the main body. But I've put them back in.Momento (talk) 11:46, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't like Prop. 10. I don't think it's worth working on because it's not an accurate depiction of Prem Rawat's life at all. It removes all mention of his association with DLM/EV (which is a new religious movement) and introduces him as a "speaker" rather than a "guru." Prem Rawat didn't only suceed his father, he also inherited all of the support of DLM-India at the time, then DLM in the U.S. and all of the financial support that included. He didn't operate in a vacuum as a "speaker on peace." While his age got him attention, it wasn't because he's a speaker about peace; (!!) it was becasue he was a boy guru about whom a lot of fantastic claims were made about his divinity. That's what was what caught the attention of scholars and the media. He was called "Guru Maharaj Ji" don't forget. It seems like this effort is going backwards now. Sylviecyn (talk) 12:11, 13 June 2008 (UTC)
Have a look at Prop 11, Sylvie. It might address some of your concerns.

[edit] Prop 11

Rumiton, could you please break the text block into sentences? It will make for better reading. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean, Jossi. I count 13 separate sentences in Prop 11. Or did you mean something else? Rumiton (talk) 15:38, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Ah, did you mean paragraphs? I agree they are needed. Rumiton (talk) 15:45, 13 June 2008 (UTC) Paragraphing added. Rumiton (talk) 15:52, 13 June 2008 (UTC)