Talk:Steven Pinker

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[edit] Locking this page to unregistered user edits

For some reason, this page is a vandal magnet. Will someone please lock it, so that only registered users can edit it?

    It's clearly because he has defended controversial views on sex and intelligence.

[edit] External link debate

I put back the link to the Steven Pinker 'Sucks' page (I called it criticism this time) because it has the best and most extensive collection of criticisms of his ideas. The page might look slanderous or libelous at first, but the criticisms are well reasoned (although, I admit that the presentation is kind of silly). I think it is valuable to have a link to that page here because Pinker's ideas are, in fact, quite controversial (his works are basically the contemporary flashpoint for ongoing "sociobiology wars"). He just happens to be an outstanding writer who is highly opinionated and speaks with authority. He is also popular best-selling author. His article should eventually be expanded to include many of key criticisms from the 'Sucks' page so people are aware of the controversy surrounding his ideas. To summarize, Pinker approaches mind from a cognitivist view that emphasizes the mind as an information processor and has many innate tendencies (or modules). His main critics are contemporary brain researchers in neuroscience who thus far find no support from brain biology for the idea of extensive modularity. People who read only his works risk coming to what they might believe are accepted scientific conclusions about the mind, when instead, they are receiving a rather narrow speculative viewpoint. --mporch 16:17, 17 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I'm not so sure it's a good external link. All the meaningful criticisms on that site are actually links to/incompetently copied&pasted acticles. All the rest is mindless blabber. I checked in Google who links to the site before removing the link: it was only this article, so it's actually an unknown site. I suggest including some of the more reasonable criticisms (as I have started doing) and removing this link as it's quality is low. (The only good thing about it is it's humorous value, which doesn't strike me as a reason to include it here.) --Glimz 09:38, 18 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That is interesting that this page was the only Google link, since I originally added the link after googling it. If you take a look at Mezmer's page, the silliness has been a bit toned down - most likely in response to this discussion here. That page has both original criticism and links elsewhere on the web. I don't find the original criticism to be "mindless blabber", but rather a bit satirical in tone. Satire makes bad criticism only when it is not substantiated. The original material presented on this page is actually representative of the cognitive neurologists criticisms of evolutionary psychology. I have read both the Panskepp paper as well as Mezmer's original content and while I find the Panskepp paper to be more carefully and deeply argued, Mezmer's content provides a far more brief and layperson-reader-friendly account of the same viewpoint. I do not think that the average reader is going to have the patience or interest in reading a 24 page paper in an academic journal, but would prefer to have the main argument against the "evolved modularity" theory of evolutionary psychology explained simply and briefly. Having a link to Mezmer's page provides both access to the academic version as well as the simplified one. From what I have found it is a good site on the web that presents a critical perspecive on Steven Pinker's work (specifically his general cog-sci rather than linguistic work). I am replacing the link. --mporch 00:51, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)
That you found the page by googling has little to do with the site's popularity. It's listed relatively high (though not top 10) in Google because it's under an ISP domain hosting a large network of sites (Google loves that and ranks accordingly). If you take the time to do a specific search, you will see that indeed no one links to that site and few link to Dr. Mezmer's main site.
As said, the "original criticisms" failed to make sense to me (though I admit I stopped reading before I had them all through) and I have the impression the writer hardly tried to make them have some. I am by no means an expert in the subject, so perhaps I have missed things, but it seems to me that the site does not do justice to the relevant arguments against evolutionary psychology. If a Wikipedia reader sees that link and concludes it's one of the primary on-line resources for Pinker criticism (it being included in the Wikipedia article), they might get a very wrong impression about it. Take your example: the very relevant arguments from neuroscience. Mezmer's discussion (linked above) starts with a paragraph that could actually be used as a general argument against abstraction, had we no knowledge of its power. It continues with carelessly chosen metaphors which only serve to confuse the reader. The whole writing maintains an unpleasant tone and uses quotes around science, whenever it refers to EP work. More importantly, it fails to really focus on the arguments it talks about (whatever those might be). Instead, it chooses to elude details, talking about massive corpora of findings, painstakingly detailed research, etc. and how all that is incompatible with Pinker's work. The writer goes on to demonstrate that he does not know what reverse engineering means, and to state that "evolutionary psychology can never explain how the mind works because it is logically incapable of explanation" without providing any rigorous arguments themselves. All they do is reiterate how ignorant Pinker is of today's science.
If you take a look at the sites that do feature a link to Dr. Mezmer's site, you will see that it's mostly in a context such as:
A semi-satirical look at modern psychology, with good and bad ideas by Csikszentmihalyi, Lakoff, Dawkins, and Damasio. Dr. Mezmer's site is itself bad science, but it has its amusing moments. [1]
or just as a humorous link in the Science/Humour section because it seems well represented in some web directories. I am yet to find a site of someone with interest in psychology that links to Dr. Mezmer as a source of information.
(Of course, if you meant that the site deserves its place here because it's amusing, it'd be another discussion (where we might disagree as well, as I think Wikipedia is not the place).) --Glimz 20:48, 29 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I see no further objections, so I am going to remove the link again. If you feel impelled to replace it: please think again. You decided not to engage in further discussion, replacing it now would mean you are trying to enforce it without discussion. --Glimz 13:12, 3 Jul 2004 (UTC)

1. I wanted to ask where in "Words and Rules" Pinker supposedly states that cog sci has dropped connectionism "like a hot potato". I looked through the book and could not find such a reference -- but it's not exactly in the index, so a reference to the exact page would be helpful. I cannot imagine that Pinker would write such a thing. Everyone knows that's not true and Pinker is not exactly out of the loop. I hope to get a response to this so we can discuss it first rather than just deleting it.

No reply here yet? Shall we delete it? Malinois (Malinois 03:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC))

2. I think that saying that P "defended Larry Summers" is again a mistatement. There was a debate between Pinker and Spelke, in which Pinker made the case that some of the sex differences in propensities for math could be genetic -- based on the kind of research out there. There was no mention in the debate about defending the more extreme statements by Summers. It was conducted as a scientific debate based on the data, it was not a political debate about whether Summers was justified in his dumb remarks.

Here's Pinker on Summers [2]. Have you read Summers' comments? They're available online. --Rikurzhen 22:08, 11 November 2005 (UTC)

I was basing my comment on the debate itself. I agree the NR article does appear to defend Summers more directly, so will probably let it stand, although, as I said, he does not defend the dumber things Summers said, like why Catholics don't sell diamonds or whatever it was he said. In addition, it seems to me that the context for the article and debate is to bring out the actual evidence in favor of biological sex differences, which should not be dismissed on political grounds alone. I think that he was trying to frame the issues in a more rational context. Have you seen or read the debate? http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/debate05/debate05_index.html I don't really see it as an apology for Summers. In fact Pinker never even mentions Summers directly by name as far as I can tell (even though it is obviously about the controversy). Perhaps we should consider that points made on either side of the debate rather than resting on the pejorative assumption that anyone who defends Summers is a sexist or worse. Malinois (Malinois 03:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC))

I personally consider Pinker's defense of Summers to be a positive reflection of Pinker's character. As written, the text seems fine to me. However, mentioning the Spelke debate would be a good addition (yes, I did see it). --Rikurzhen 04:02, 21 November 2005 (UTC)

3. Finally, the remark that Pinker has stopped publishing empirical research is not exactly true. If you look at his CV he has published a number of empirical papers in the last few years -- not at the rate before he started writing for the masses, but still respectable. I know that he continues to do empirical research on heritability. Unless there is a strong argument against these latter points, I will edit the remarks to be more accurate in the next few days. (Malinois 22:01, 11 November 2005 (UTC))

OK a new grouch ... In the description of PsychoDarwinists, it refers to Chomsky as a PsychoDarwinist. In fact, Chomsky has strongly argued against Darwinian explanations of Linguistic knowledge. Although he clearly thinks that language is innate for the most part, he does not believe that it got there through natural selection. The argument basically goes that the kinds of things that he proposes to be innate bits of language (e.g., bizarre contraints on where you can move things in a sentence) couldn't possibly convey to the holders of such linguistic constraints any kind of selectional advantage, more sex or whatever. They are almost arbitrary in their purely formal structure. Therefore, Darwinian mechanisms of natural selection cannot account for why the language is the way it is any more than, say functionality can (remember, we are dealing mostly with the arbitrary aspects of syntax). So, Chomsky's position is that language is the way it is because it couldn't be any other way, any more than the structure of the water molecule could be any other way. Language basically follows laws of form within the physical structure of reality. This has been debated, and in fact Pinker and Bloom published a lead article in Behavioral Brain Sciences arguing against Chomsky on this point and in favor of a selectionist position (Pinker, S. & Bloom, P. (1990) Natural language and natural selection. Behavioral and Brain Sciences, 13, 707-784). So, I think we should take out the reference to Chomsky as a Darwinian. Malinois (Malinois 03:20, 21 November 2005 (UTC))

[edit] Pinker is American

At the risk of incurring the eternal wrath of nationalist Canadians, I have to point out Pinker is an American... If you look at his CV it says (under Biographical information) : U.S. citizen. So just like we don't call Henry Kissinger a German statesman or Tolkien a South African author (at most, German-born American statesman or South African-born author), we shouldn't call Pinker a Canadian. Mikkerpikker ... 15:32, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

Pinker is surely just a dual citizen then. He clearly grew up in Montreal, and nothing in Canadian citizenship law forces a renunciation of Canadian citizenship when another citizenship is accepted. J21 03:12, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
If he's a dual citizen (and he would be-- Canadians virtually never give up citizenship) he could also be "Canadian-American" as Michael J. Fox or William Shatner. Steve Rapaport 20:47, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
How do you know he's Canadian American? Can you please cite a source? His CV just says "American", till we have a source saying he's Canadian American, American should stay. Mikker (...) 23:04, 8 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The man was born and raised in Canada and spent a large sum of his life within the nation of Canada (Pinker himself points this within his books). Make mention of it in the article with due respect and be done with it.
"just like we don't call Henry Kissinger a German statesman or Tolkien a South African author (at most, German-born American statesman or South African-born author), we shouldn't call Pinker a Canadian... Mikkerpikker."
  • I am at a loss as to this elusive WE!! Wikipedia belongs to the world not one Ameri-centric view point. The foly of the above stated logic is that infact famous people do often get recognised with multiple nationalities, it just depends on what text you refrence (and where the text was published). Alexander Graham Bell is credited as a Scotish, Canadian, and American, inventor of the telephone, regardless of where he was working at the time he created his invention. Sir James Naismith, the inventor of basketball, is credited as both a Canadian, and an American inventor. Following this line of logic, Pinker has invented many theories and can be credited in this method.
  • Further, Pinker spent his university days studying experimental psychology at McGill University in Canada this information can be found within any of his recent publications, such as: How the Mind Works, About the author, penguin books, 1999.
  • I would appeal to peoples commonsense that it is clearly accepted that a man born, raised, and schooled within a nation is clearly of that nationality in our commonsense use of the word, despite whatever documents he may posses of citizenship at the time. (How else would people be capable of conceptualizing such terms as 2nd or 3rd generation Italian-Canadian.
  • The encyclopedia britannica has decided to call Steven Pinker Canadian-born American.
"At the forefront of cognitive science in 1999 was Canadian-born American experimental psychologist Steven Pinker, who in October published an eagerly anticipated book, Words and Rules: The Ingredients of Language. In a highly praised earlier book, How the Mind Works (1997), Pinker discussed the development of the human brain in terms of natural selection, applying a Darwinian…"[3].
  • At the very least it seems fitting to follow in suit with this title. It does not follow that this is to deny Steven Pinkers Canadian-ness, but to recognise it. And as is fitting, he can be cited as both a Canadian and American Professor (as in the above examples of famous people).
  • In closing (jestfuly) I must point out that Steven Pinker enjoys the game of Hockey, unofficially that makes anyone 90% Canadian, by default.--Scottmcmaster 10:17, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Pinker major article update

I'm in the process of a major update of the Pinker article, please see User:Mikkerpikker/Future Projects/Steven Pinker. Mikkerpikker ... 00:38, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I've finished the basic layout/structure & incorporated all of the material of the current article into the new version... Please read over it & fix my errors! (I'm sure there are some)! Mikkerpikker ... 14:53, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Apology...

Sorry about the barnstar debacle! (see history...) I wanted to test a barnstar before awarding it & I thought I was in my sandbox about Pinker (User:Mikkerpikker/Future Projects/Steven Pinker). Sorry to all for any disruption caused... Mikker ... 20:12, 16 February 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Removed "Citation needed"

I removed the "citation needed" tag from the following sentance:

  • In "Words and Rules," for example, he describes cognitive scientists as having dropped a competing model "like a hot potato" after his widely cited criticism.

The citation required is in the very sentance! Keithmahoney 23:27, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, read this talk page, and saw the comment about this, so I reverted my edit. Keithmahoney 23:31, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Citations needed for criticism section

I think this article is very good, but the criticism section needs serious work. As it stands now it is completely innocent of citation. I know these to be actual criticisms of EP but we need to buttress them with citations. Can anyone help source these ideas? ( I know there is a fairly recent collection of essays that argue against the EP perspective but I can't remember the name at this moment.) Levi P. 00:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree and I note that this request for citations is a couple months old now. I am sure that there are critics of Pinker and they ought to be reflected here, but by someone who is willing to source the criticisms.Sandwich Eater 20:35, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I deleted the following:

Critics allege Pinker's books ignore or dismiss opposing evidence. In "Words and Rules," for example, he describes cognitive scientists as having dropped a competing model "like a hot potato" after his widely cited criticism.[citation needed] If anything, that opposing view, Connectionism, remains as popular as ever and the ongoing dispute does not appear to be heading towards any sort of resolution.[citation needed] Other critics (see Edward Oakes's review in the External links) claim that Pinker may be a little too good a writer in being able to combine several weakly based hypotheses into a plausible-sounding "evolutionary psychology" story that in reality may be no more scientific than a Rudyard Kipling "Just So" story. Pinker has also been criticized for what some see as straw man arguments against Constructivism and the Tabula Rasa in The Blank Slate. [citation needed]

And I added an "expert" tag. If anyone is able to add the requested citations noted above or add other relevant and sourced criticism in an encyclopedic fashion it would benefit the article. Sandwich Eater 20:40, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] American?

Why is Pinker introduced as an American experimental psychologist? He was both born in Canada and considers himself to be Canadian? Change made.

Erm. Read the talk page please. See Talk:Steven Pinker#Pinker is American. Mikker (...) 19:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Personal info

Please sto adding material regarding personal life, particularily material which is not even sourced. I removed portions of this but left only what was talked about in the Harvard Crimson article. Please read the material on the top of this page regarding bios of living persons: "This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material of any kind that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libelous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard." 68.9.129.43 01:24, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

All the info was gathered from reputable public sources. (which, btw, should be READ before editing. Just a thought). See this and also read the others. Mikker (...) 01:48, 5 November 2006 (UTC)

I hardly see why information about his ex-wives is relevant to the article. Just beacuse something is sourced does not mean it belongs in the article. Maybe his ex-wives do not want their names showing up in WP?? Why don't we look up his publicly accessible real estate-tax data, and post how much his house costs? If you keep adding this material I will bring it up in the living persons noticeboard. In fact most of the biographical matrial here seems hardly relevant. Please stop adding it. 68.9.129.43 01:31, 25 November 2006 (UTC)

Bring it up at BLP then. Frankly, your continued deletion amounts to vandalism. Shoo ip. Mikker (...) 21:34, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
There, I've created an account. Now, please refer to the guidelines regarding Biographies of Living Persons, specifically section regarding presumption of privacy and tell me whether your childish edits are important for the article. I've reverted your edits, and brought it up at BLP. KAdler 01:14, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Steven Pinker would appear to fit under the "non-public figure" of the link given by KAdler. There is no need to add this kind of personal detail. Mentioning he has a brother and sister is fine and so is saying he's been divorced. Giving names and descriptions is unnecessary. Also, I see no evidence that either of you has been engaging in vandalism (cf WP:Vandalism), so please refrain from calling other editors vandals as this can be considered a violation of WP:AGF. --C S (Talk) 01:35, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
  • Per WP:BLP, the ex-wives names should not be included, unless they are notable people. Removing them would certainly not be considered vandalism. - Crockspot 03:08, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Frankly, I fail completely to see how BLP applies to this case. (1) The information about Pinker's life is published in a reliable third party source - i.e. The Gaurdian (and the Harvard Crimson. (2) The information is in no way controversial, nor has anyone questioned its accuracy. (3) If Pinker himslelf didn't want this info out there he wouldn't have told a widely read newspaper about it. Please compare Richard Dawkins - I completely fail to see how mentioning that Pinker has been married and divorced three times is a problem. Mikker (...) 19:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Again, nobody is saying the information is not sourced, but rather that it is not relevant to his biography. While Pinker may have given out the names of his ex-wives to a newspaper, maybe his ex-wives do not want their names published. You are assuming because somebody published private info, then it is OK to plaster it all over the internet (which is what WP ultimately does). Therefore, the best thing is to presume that these people want their names private. This is clearly outlined in BLP, did you read this policy? The information does not add anything to the article and is not relevant to his career or professional life. As was mentioned before, if you want you can say that he's been divorced twice, if you feel this is such an important fact (which I failt to see why it is, unless you are running a gossip magazine), but keep the names private. As far as the Dawkins article goes, I think that info is inappropriately placed as well, and I'll advocate removing it once the article is no longer protected. Now, will you tell me exactly WHY you think keeping this information is important? KAdler 19:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
You'll have a couple of hundred thousand articles to deal with if you're going to advocate not naming anyone's spouse/ex-spouse/family member's name. But that aside, I fail to see how naming these people does any harm (ultimately the whole point of BLP is to avoid libel and causing harm). Now IF you want the names of his wives excluded - fine, why not just say so? (And remove them? Instead of the whole sentence). Having it there isn't all that important. But that Pinker was married (and divorced) is a notable fact about his life that ought to be mentioned. He might not like it, but, as a popular science writer, he's a public figure (he doesn't just publish technical papers on language acquisition; he participates in public debates and courts publicity - he stars in documentaries, writes popular books, gets interviewed on radio/television, gives detailed biographical info about himself to widely distributed newspapers etc.). Nothing we have talked about has anything to do with BLP IMO; but, whatever, this is hardly something to become upset about. More important things have been debated on WP... Incidentally, why are you happy to mention his gf's name, but not his ex-wives' names? Mikker (...) 20:18, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I left his current girlfriend on there more as a compromise, since she is at least somewhat notable, but we can take her name off too. That being said, why do you think that it is notable that he has been divorced twice? As far as not discussing things in the talk page, what exactly is the discussion above about? KAdler 22:25, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Before you posted on talk. Anyhow... getting married and divorced is an important part of anyone's life. We have a biography section on Pinker. Ergo... Mikker (...) 19:46, 28 November 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Politics

It would probably be a good idea if this article included Pinker's political views. I mean, a lot of the controversy is over the political ramifications of his views, after all.--78.16.53.60 19:55, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not so sure that's a good idea but if you want to add something along these lines, go for it - as long as you conform to the relevant Wikipedia policies, WP:OR, WP:NPOV, WP:CITE, etc. Mikker (...) 20:42, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

I think a section on the political ramifications of Pinker's work would be totally subjective. Pinker himself has never used his views for politics. Anything else would be a political analysis and, therefore, unencyclopedic.--Anthropos65 (talk) 16:22, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Thats not what she/he said. She/he said we should include his political views, because that is where the controversy comes from. Jt_200075 19:47, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

[edit] reference to divorce

The personal info section indicates he is divorced from his second wife with a reference (7) to IMDB. The IMDB bio doesn't mention anything about a divorce, although it is out of date. The reference may have meant to indicate only the name of his second wife, but by indicating he was divorced with the reference implies that the reference has info about the divorce. Can this be changed to indicate that the reference only mentions the 2nd wife, not the divorce? The line about the divorce could be after the reference. Sorry if this is confusing--please email me at ellengoodman6@comcast.net for clarification. Thank you. Elleng 02:16, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removed unreferenced claim

There has been talk that he left MIT due to pressure regarding the nature of his general work, but Pinker himself refuses to comment, or verify this claim.

I removed the above because it is controversial, unreferenced, and this is a biography of a living person. -- Beland 17:46, 22 October 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Determinst?

Pinker is a determinist? Can that be verified? --Perfection (talk) 03:58, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Pinker and Misogyny

I'm surprised in this already too lengthy entry on Pinker that there isnn't a Criticism section or Politics section. There is a published interview in which Pinker says to the effect that it is scientifically objective that women are mentally inferior to men. Check the Wiki section on former Harvard president Lawrence Summers sexist remarks (and the wiki entry on Cornel West, for Summers lack of ethics), though Pinker supported Summers.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article.aspx?ref=505366

Teetotaler 14 May, 2008 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.68.22.207 (talk) 04:22, 14 May 2008 (UTC)