Talk:Steve Biko

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[edit] Date problem

Does anyone have the source that the year 1968 (for Biko starting SASO) comes from? Other sources said he resigned from NUSAS in 1969.

Engleman 00:31, 2004 Jun 1 (UTC)

PS: as well as this: http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/biko,s.htm

Biko became disenchanted with NUSAS by 1968 and began organizing SASO, which held a representative Conference in Dec 1968 at Marianhill, Natal; the date which marks the official formation of SASO. It was officially inaugurated in July 1969 at Turfloop University. SASO adopted a policy of maintaining only a functional relationship with NUSAS, and not a structural one. For this reason, Biko resigned from NUSAS after the inauguration.

'I write what I like' - Steve Biko ISBN 1 77010 006 7 2005 JohD 13:24, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Typo? Or accurate quote of a typo?

3rd item under "Quotes":

"The system concedes nothing without demand, for it forumalates..."

[edit] The book Biko by Donald Woods

Hi: I don't know where you obtained that source from, but i can tell you that he resigned from SASO, in1971

I don't think this is correct. Biko's term as Publicity Officer ended in 1970. He began doing voluntary work for BPC. In mid-1972, he terminated his course at Wenthworth and began working full-time for BPC in Durban. Technically, he was no longer a student, and could not remain a member of SASO. JohD 13:29, 6 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Bantu

  • An editor removed "Bantu" from the article with the following comment: "the term "Bantu" is actually an offensive term used by the South African government, which refers to the black population. It is NOT part of Stephen Biko's name" – a statement with little truth. Bantu is not a deragatory term (even the words "black" and "African" were used with malevolence in Apartheid lingo, but you wouldnt call "African" deragatory); most biographical sources give his middle name as Bantu; many sources say his father Mzingaye gave him the name Bantu, refering to umuntu ngumuntu ngabantu – a Zulu concept that is translated to English in many ways. --Ezeu 21:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Improvement drive

Black Consciousness Movement has been nominated to be improved on WP:IDRIVE. If you want to see it improved, vote for it here! --Fenice 11:42, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Trial?

and on 7 October 2003, the South African Justice Ministry officials announced that the five policemen who were accused of killing Biko would not be prosecuted because of insufficient evidence. During the trial it was claimed that Biko's head injuries were a self-inflicted suicide attempt, and not the result of any beatings. The judge ultimately ruled that a murder charge could not be supported partly because there were no witnesses to the killing. Charges of culpable homicide and assault were also considered, but because the killing occurred in 1977, the time frame for prosecution had expired

This is rather confused. What trial? If the Justice Ministry ruled out prosecuting the policemen, who was an trial? The independent article is not working so that's of no use Nil Einne 09:31, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

[edit] minor error for nearly 3 years!

Ouch. This edit introduced an error which survived for nearly 3 years. I watched the movie "Cry Freedom" tonight waiting to hear the song Biko, but it wasn"t there. So I looked to see if the song is on the CD soundtrack. No. Pretty sad to see this error last that long.--Jimbo Wales 05:08, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Reasons for Biko's arrest

I have seen several references in the past that suggested is was possible, even if unlikely, that Biko was involved in gun smuggling, and that was the reason for his arrest. Here is one link that references this idea: http://members.shaw.ca/cartermyths/Carterbiko.htm While it may not be true, I think there was sufficient speculation at the time to warrant mention in the Biko article.--Mike Melzer 17:30, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] POV considerations

Let me say outright that I agree with the tone and facts of this article. If, however, this had been written in the period when the apartheit regime ruled South Africa someone from that camp would very likely have attacked it as biased. Most of us now regard Nelson Mandela as a great statesman and a humanitarian, but during his long imprisonment, he was depicted as a terrorist by his government; some, I expect, still think so. Similarly, some Japanese deny atrocities of the Japanese Empire, and many Americans deny the atrocities of the USA at several points in its history.

There are many articles in Wikipedia which are the scenes of heated and ferocious debates about what is and is not POV or NPOV, and what are the facts in question. The religiously inclined, for instance, usually say things that I view with alarm.

My opinion is that a NPOV is impossible in any but the most innocuous context, and that it would be better if Wikipedia recognised that as fact and devised some mechanism for non-destructive debates in these troubled areas. Perhaps those who disagree with the tone or conclusions of an article could, instead of engaging in unproductive 'revert wars' and outright vandalism, [note the slur on the Vandals] be allowed to write parallel articles presenting their own points of view (or biases)? Too Old 03:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Homage

I felt a genuine need within this tapestry of Biko's life for a place where his legacy could be read in the words of tribute from those who have been inspired; or in some small fractional way, stirred by the story of a man in these modern times who walked peacefully from silence to a martyr's death, confronting his nation's oppressors. This homage is meant to be a genuinely respectful tribute. September 12, 2007 will mark the 30th Anniversary of Stephen Biko's death. [ Format: Date of entry (15 Oct 06) - your personal note of tribute. optional name, optional country ]

removed vandalism71.12.194.34 20:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Best known

I've (re)added a phrase to the opening paragraph saying that Biko is "best known internationally for his death while in police custody". You'll find a reference to the way he died in the opening paragraph of every well-written bio for him, and it's the largest section of this very article. "I doubt its true" is no justification for removing it, since the article itself demonstrates that it is true. This doesn't mean it's all he ever did, but the opening paragraph should include a familiar "hook" for a casual reader to recognize, and mentioning his martyrdom provides that. - 66.93.200.116 00:26, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Martyrdom mention in the lead is probably good, but saying he is "best known for dying" sounds odd and patently false. He may be internationally remembered as a martyr for black nationalism (as Encarta says) or something like that. Smmurphy(Talk) 01:39, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Except that it doesn't say "best known for dying" but rather that he is best known (especially in countries where his political activities are not themselves well known, but Peter Gabriel is) for the circumstances of his death. If the statement were patently false, no one would have added it. Calling it "martyrdom" fails the NPOV test. - 161.57.55.36 17:22, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm looking for a citeable statement about his memory related to his death. He is remembered as a martyr [1], which says as much about his life as his death. The only person who is "best known for the circumstances of his death" might be Crispus Attucks in the US, otherwise the statement just seems like a non-sequiter. I'm sorry that I said this was patently false, I'm sure it makes sense to some, but I can't speculate on how he is best known by most people. I can cite that he is remembered for dying for the cause of black nationalism (this is irrespective of how or why he died, I'm only talking about his myth). I don't know exactly where NPOV or Peter Gabriel come in. Smmurphy(Talk) 18:53, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
The phrase doesn't worry me much, but let's try some others to get consensus - "best known" is subjective and a bit sloppy. What about "whose death in police custody led to widespread international condemnation" or "who became a martyr of the anti-apartheid movement[2] after his death in police custody". I don't think it's POV to call someone a martyr of a cause - it's clear that martyrdom is in the eyes of the supporters of the cause.Zaian 20:43, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
I changed the lead a bit. I think the lead has a ways to go, though, per WP:LEAD. Smmurphy(Talk) 22:14, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Quotes

Should quotes from the movie "Cry Freedom" really be included on this page?68.211.176.19 22:42, 28 April 2007 (UTC)

No. Zaian 09:37, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
I thought so too.68.211.176.19 19:33, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Incorrect statement regarding Mandela's pacifism?

Quoting from [3]:In 1961, Mandela became the leader of the ANC's armed wing, Umkhonto we Sizwe (translated as Spear of the Nation, also abbreviated as MK), which he co-founded. He co-ordinated a sabotage campaign against military and government targets, and made plans for a possible guerrilla war if sabotage failed to end apartheid

Good point, I'll put in the quantifier "post Robben Island Mandela." Thanks, Smmurphy(Talk) 02:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
I think it is in general incorrect to view Mandela as a pacifist. In light of the works quoted hereafter, it can be seen that Mandela prefers peace, but has no moral objections to using violence in aid of a just cause. A much better description, based on his advocation of violence/non-violence, would be pragmatist.
THE MANDELA DOCUMENT
http://www.anc.org.za/ancdocs/history/mandela/64-90/doc890705.html
"White South Africa must accept the plain fact that the ANC will not suspend, to say nothing of abandoning, the armed struggle until the government shows its willingness to surrender the monopoly of political power, and to negotiate directly and in good faith with the acknowledged black leaders. The renunciation of violence by either the government or the ANC should not be a precondition to, but the result of, negotiation." (1)
"The organisation has no vested interest in violence. It abhors any action which may cause loss of life, destruction of property and misery to the people. It has worked long and patiently for a South Africa of common values and for an undivided and peaceful non-racial state."(2)
Profile of Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela
http://www.anc.org.za/people/mandela.html
At the Rivonia trial, Mandela explained : "At the beginning of June 1961, after long and anxious assessment of the South African situation, I and some colleagues came to the conclusion that as violence in this country was inevitable, it would be wrong and unrealistic for African leaders to continue preaching peace and non-violence at a time when the government met our peaceful demands with force. (3)
I think that discussion is more fit for the Mandela article (here is a good book, if you want to add some of this there and cite other sources than web sites: Graybill, Lyn S. (2002). Nelson Mandela: Pragmatic Reconciler, Truth and reconciliation in South Africa: miracle or model? Boulder, Colo.: Lynne Rienner Publishers). In any case, there are quite a few sources (which this article cites) which compare Biko's Fanonianism with Mandela's Gandhian pacifism, especially post Robben. I think that is all that line is trying to get at. Smmurphy(Talk) 19:58, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] "Alleged" Police Brutality?

Why is Biko listed under a category called "alleged" police brutality? it's not alleged. it's fact. he was in the hands of police, and he was found dead. quite simple 64.142.83.231

There is no category police brutality, BTW. Smmurphy(Talk) 15:07, 28 July 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Offensive Flag

Will someone please remove the offensive apartheid era South African flag from beneath the picture of Steve Biko? What was the rationale for putting it there in the first place?

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.241.210.142 (talk) 19:17, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

The flag shown was the flag of South Africa at the time of Steve Biko's death. The flag of present day South Africa didn't come to be until after Biko died. As a comparison, you'll note on the page for the American Civil War, the flag in question is 34 stars, not 50 (34 stars representing the number of states in the union at the start of the war, 1861). -- —66.108.217.8 00:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] ANC hostility towards BC

In the intro, someone added: "The ANC was very hostile to Biko and to Black Consciousness through the 70s to the mid 90s..."

I'm not disputing it, but as I don't know the facts, I was hoping someone might provide a more authoritative reference on the matter, thanks. -- —66.108.217.8 00:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Confusion

On 7 October 2003 the South African Justice Ministry officials announced that the five policemen who were accused of killing Biko would not be prosecuted because of insufficient evidence and the fact that the time span for prosecution had elapsed. Is there a statute of limitations in South African law? is that why 'the time span for prosecution had elapsed'? Or is there another reason? I'm rather confused by this statement. If someone with some knowledge of law could clarify this for me, that'd be great. -- Mukk 00:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Photo

I'm annoyed that there is no photo. There is one that would seem to be in the public domain, seen here: http://www.sahistory.org.za/pages/people/images/biko,s.jpg

and here: http://www.nelsonmandela.org/images/uploads/Steve-biko.jpg

How is it that you can cite information on a public website, but you cannot acredit a photograph the same way? -- Fbrhr (talk) 19:30, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism?

Somebody edited in the phrase "Yihla Moja! Yihla Moja! The man is dead! The man is dead." I'm not sure if this is vandalism or not, but it does not make sense in its current context Shreder 02 (talk) 18:01, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

If it looks like nonsense, it probably is. Now removed. --Ezeu (talk) 19:28, 23 April 2008 (UTC)