Talk:Stereo 8

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Contents 1 Headline text 2 Reel-to-reel 3 Internal structure 4 Criticism 5 Obsolete 6 Use for live TV show sound effects 7 What's with the redirect? 8 Removed Orrtronics reference 9 How to Use 10 Neutrality 11 8-track introduction 12 Fidelipak/Fidelipac 13 Tape length 14 Article name 15 Boxed Sets? 16 Dumb question about how these things worked 17 An American phenomemon? 18 Issues 19 Still beingproduced in USA 20 Fair use rationale for Image:Sexpistols8track.JPG

[edit] Headline text

[edit] Reel-to-reel

Reel-to-reel introduced in '40s --- Are you sure about this? The best I could dig up was the Ampex in 1956, and use by CBS for the first time in November 30, 1956. Magnetic tape was actually invented in in 1928, but wasn't really feasible until the invention of plastic tape in 1947. Ioa 19:59 Oct 14, 2002 (UTC)

The invention of plastic magnetic tape happened well before 1947. It was being used in Germany in both broadcasting and military applications during the second world war. The BASF chemical company manufactured the tapes. 80.229.222.48 21:35, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Internal structure

I've opened up one of my 8-track cartridges and will be posting a picture of its internal mechanism to replace the closed one I put there in the meantime, but it's going to show there's ONLY ONE REEL in the cartridge, so the article is wrong. Whoever wrote it must have been working from a written description, because anyone who's ever taken one apart to fix a broken tape knows there's only one reel, and the tape comes off the bottom and winds back on the top, and the tracks are next to each other on the single tape on the single reel. So will someone please rewrite the article, so when I put the picture there we won't look stupid? -- isis 20:37 Oct 21, 2002 (UTC)

[edit] Criticism

What? No mention of funcionality problems in the article. 8 tracks had a limited life at best. How many times did you eject one from you car's player and the cartridge came out but the tape stayed in the player leaving you with a tangled mess and a decision of whether to try to repair it or just buy another copy. Or how about when you recorded your favorite album onto a blank 8 track to take with you in your car and it would inevitably change programs right in the middle of a song. These types of things need to be added to the article.

Au contraire, I've never had an 8-track tape get eaten or mangled by the machine. I have, however, had plenty of VHS and Cassette tapes ruined this way!

[edit] Obsolete

Isn't calling it "now-obsolete" a bias? Some people still use 'em! swirsky

Maybe some other word might be more appropriate? As far as I know, 8-track players and cartridges are no longer produced --Zilog Jones 18:14, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's biased to call something obsolete even if they are still in use - some people still listen to 78s. Obsolete means superceded by a newer technology and no longer used by the majority of people. The 8-track is definitely obsolete. Graham 00:07, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Obsolete, in my eyes, means something that is out of production, as well as being superceded by a newer technology. --65.147.23.106 04:51, 21 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Use for live TV show sound effects

Were the professional 8-track tapes ever used for sound effects playback on TV shows recorded in front of a live audience? (eg late night talk shows). I saw a quick shot of the "sound guy" on a variety show once where the guy was surrounded by an array of cartidges that he could quickly slot into the player to provide various sounds for particular segments (or for a quick laugh). - Diceman

They most likely were the Fidelipac professional three-track commercial carts, not 8-tracks. --Blainster 21:26, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying. - Diceman 12:51, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] What's with the redirect?

Why is ' Eight-track recording machine' re-directed here? I ended up being redirected here from a link in the article about 'Hey Jude' - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hey_Jude - the concepts of multi-track recording and eight track stereo cartridge are being confused here. I'm sure that the Beatles did NOT record 'Hey Jude on an eight track cartridge.

[edit] Removed Orrtronics reference

I removed this sentence from the end of the opening paragraph: "Much early development of the 8-Track itself (after its inital conception) was also pioneered by the Orrtornics Corporation of Toledo, Ohio.". As it stands it does not convey much useful information. It could be added back in the narrative of 8-track development if it can be determined just what contributions the company made. Otherwise it just sounds like advertising.

A Google search shows the company name Orrtronics was mispelled in the sentence referred to above. A web page here says they had licensed an endless loop tape cartridge that was unsuccessful in the market. --Blainster 18:35, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

[edit] How to Use

The article does not cover how 8-tracks are played back, Is there a speaker, a headphone jack, or is an external appliance needed? Afterburner 00:25, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

An 8-track deck is similar to a cassette deck in this regard. It was originally used in automobiles and plugged into the auto radio (or speakers if it conained an amplifier). In the home it could be a stand alone unit with amplifier and speakers, or a deck that plugged into a stereo system.

[edit] Neutrality

The article isn't very neutral in its coverage of the fidelity of 8-tracks, constantly touting mediocre sound quality and being disavowed by audiophiles. Sure, a good few of the 8-tracks you'll pick up from a thrift store might not sound quite as crisp as they were 30 or 35 years ago, but it's been my experience that a few of my 8s are indistinguishable from CD-quality audio. Factors including age, cartridge design, player condition, proper storage/maintenance, and original recording quality (for example, don't look to a recording of the greatest hits of the Monkees on a Realistic cartridge in a typically out-of-alignment 8-track/record/radio combo unit as a true representation of audio fidelity from the 8) influence how good an 8-track can sound. If executed properly, you can defeat the argument of replacing it with a CD for quality's sake. --User:Vintagejonny 20:36, 23 April 2006

Interesting arguements. I guess, if you think about it, pretty much any audio format degrades over time if it's not properly cared for. I only own one cart. I've taken good care of it, and I've only tested it out once on a system that didn't have great speaker sound to begin with, so I don't know with any certainty about the sound quality. But maybe the amount of cart care and maintenance is too much for some folks, and maybe that's why it's not as popluar as lower-maintenance formats such as cassette or CD. I'll try to edit some of the bias, though; it's all in the ears of the beholder, after all. --Dynamite Eleven 02:12, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

The tape itself is capable of good sound, but the real problem is the mechanics. I have yet to hear an 8-track that didn't wow, and for an audiophile, that is intolerable, no matter how good the sound otherwise. The problem is that the mechanical drag of the reel is quite substantial, despite the graphite coating, so a very high pinch-wheel pressure is needed (exacerbated by the very same graphite working against friction at the pinch wheel/capstan). The pinch wheel pressure is provided only my the springs holding the cartridge in the player, so it's rather limited (or else the cartridge becomes very hard to pull out of the machine). Also, the drag partly depends on the softness of the pinch wheel, which being part of the cartridge, must vary somewhat. All these factors make the pinch wheel force variable and compromised. As I say, I have yet to hear one that didn't wow. Graham 05:41, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

I agree. But the BIG problem with 8 tracks were that they were SO reliant on the QUALITY of the equiptment. Cheap players had problems like crosstalk between tracks and severe head alignment issues that resulted in poor sound quality. Higher quality decks, like my Pioneer with Dolby make crisp, clear recordings that have VERY good fidelity. In the days before auto reverse cassettes, The 8 track was vastly superior, as it would play continuously. I never owned a cassette deck until autoreverse decks became common in the late 80's. Teamgoon 06:37, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

You know, CDs are awfully high maintenance. I keep having to find out how to clean them, over and over again. Cassette tapes would be better for my favorite sounds. As for eight-tracks. . . all I really want is to play something that doesn't wear out after a few months. They're really pretty and shiny, and look really futuristic, but frankly, I'd rather have something I can actually keep for an extended period of time. Maybe 8-tracks are the key. I have to admit I'm not an "audiophile," though.

[edit] 8-track introduction

Sources requested for article: Ford Motors, which in 1965 (debuted September 15) offered 8-track players as an option in their complete line of 1966 model cars – from You Really Got Me a comprehensive history of the Kinks, by Doug Hinman and Jason Brabazon, 1994

Also: After getting RCA Victor to commit to the mass production of its catalog on Learjet 8-tracks, Ford agreed to offer the players as optional equipment on 1966 models. – from "A History of The Eight Track Tape" by David Morton in 8-Track Mind magazine, 1995. dredged up by Google & --Blainster 22:37, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Fidelipak/Fidelipac

I was just in here to do some copy editing, so I'm not sure of the difference between these two. Did the name ever change? The article doesn't make that clear, and so it looked like an error to me, but I have no idea which of them is correct (or whether either is incorrect). Thathollygirl 22:55, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Tape length

It's not obvious from the article how many minutes an 8-track can hold. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.234.16.120 (talk) 07:59, 4 February 2007 (UTC).

Well, I have Springsteen's "The River" on 1 fat 8 track and its an 82 minute album. John celona (talk) 18:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Article name

I'd like to hear some views about the article title. Strictly speaking, the format was called "Stereo 8"; many cartridge manufacturers actually did use this term, althouh it seems Learjet wasn't terribly bothered about requiring the trademark to be used, or used consistently. Most people in English refer to the object as an "8-track cartridge" and this term was in semi-formal use; CBS cartridges generally say "8-Track Stereo" on them, while others, such as those from RCA, generally are labeled "Stereo 8 Cartridge"; ie, the formal trademark. I think it's OK the way it is (Stereo 8 is mentioned in the intro and as the title of the infobox) but as other formats stick to the trademark (Compact Cassette, Compact Disc) I thought I'd ask. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 20:26, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If there's no objection, I will do this; both terms are used in the article enough to make it clear what we are talking about, and the use of the trademark would make it consistent with other media-format articles. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 14:43, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Boxed Sets?

"Bruce Springsteen and the E Street Band's Live/1975-85... is probably the only boxed set ever released on vinyl, cassette, compact disc and 8-track tape."

I can actually name you several boxed sets that were released on all 4 formats, so this might should be changed. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Garr1984 (talk • contribs) 01:28, 8 March 2007 (UTC).

Please do, that would be interesting, and if you have pictures, they might be useful. I've removed this claim from the article. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 14:44, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it meant that its original release was on on all formats? It's not difficult to imagine that in 1988 (the last year of official commercial 8-tracks and one of the first years of commercial compact discs) that this brief window of time might have given the album the distinction of being one of the only (if not THE only) simultaneous debut release of a boxed set on all four said formats. But that's purely speculation. --Dynamite Eleven 01:07, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

• Here are a few 8 Track Boxed Sets I know of, that were also available on LP, Cassette, and CD sets. They were all put out by Reader's Digest.:

Marty Robbins - His Greatest Hits and Finest Performances.

The Best Of Roger Whittaker - His Greatest Hits and Finest Performances.

Tumbling Tumbleweeds (Various Western Artists).

The Best Of The Statler Brothers - Their Greatest Hits and Finest Performances.

Charley Pride's Country.

Garr1984 02:33, 25 March 2007 (UTC)§

[edit] Dumb question about how these things worked

I wonder how the cartridges addressed the problem of the different linear speeds at the hub and the outside of the reel. Apparently, the linear speed at the hub (where the tape is pulled out) is identical to the tape speed. However, the linear speed at the outside of the tape winding mus then be higher than the tape speed, either ripping the tape apart or bringing the whole thing to a grinding stop. Still there have been reports of working Stereo 8 units, so this problem must have addressed somehow... Could please someone explain? --Klaws 14:13, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

The tape layers are not as tightly packed as on a reel-to-reel or cassette tape. The difference in linear velocity between the hub and the outside of the tape pack means that as it turns, the tape layers must slip past each other. This is why the back of the tape is coated with a lubricant. --Blainster 21:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Tapes use a device called a capstain that causes the tape to feed to the heads at the same speed the feed reel is free wheeling. The pulling reel is on a clutch just enough to take up the tape. The 8 track cartridge is fed using the capstain and there is enough slack in the tape on the winding wheels to make up for the differences in thickness of the take up and feed reels which are on the same drum. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 71.132.195.49 (talk • contribs) 00:12, April 2, 2007 (UTC)

Not a dumb question at all, but a pretty interesting paradox. I'm curious if there were performance issues with very large spools, where the difference between inner and outer reel speed would have been greatest. ProhibitOnions ^(T) 09:20, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

The anonymous responder fails to make clear that the continuous loop of 8-track tape winds around the outside, and feeds out from the hub of a single reel. The slack he is describing is between the windings of that single coil of tape, and by "differences in thickness" he means to say difference in diameter between the outside and hub of the coil. Unrecorded 8-track tapes were manufactured with a maximum of 80 minute length, which is (20 minutes x four stereo tracks). At the normal speed of 3.75 ips, that is 375 feet of tape on the reel. Normal album length programs would use more like 200 feet, and the 8-track reel hub was relatively large, so the difference in velocity would not have been great. --Blainster 21:43, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] An American phenomemon?

Does anyone know if 8 Track cassettes were ever available in the UK, Europe or Australia? Ive only ever seen them referred to in an American context. 58.108.48.140Encise.

Ive seen them on sale in Ireland so presumably they were available in the UK as well. Sometime in the late 1970's the record companies stopped issuing new releases but I understand they continues supporting the format in North America well into the 1980's. 80.229.222.48 21:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

8 tracks were a huge success here (in the UK) in the early 70s. But as the 70s wore on, their technical problems became too much for people to tolerate. The biggest issue was tape slip. Shops often had an 8 track playing in the background, and it got to the point where every 3rd shop one went into the tape was slippping severely, sounding like a wounded machine that needed putting to sleep. This really killed their reputation.

Mistracking had always been a problem, but was accepted as one of the imperfections of the medium. But severe tape slip was an awful phenomenon to listen to. Tabby 11:06, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Issues

The article doesnt cover them all, so here we go. All these were routine problems unortunately.

• Tape slip, the biggest problem by far. Sounded terrible. Not all machines suffered this, but enough did to ruin 8 track's reputation.
• Splice oxidation, causing failure to change tracks automatically
• Splice coating cracking, causing 2 or 3 track changes where one should occur.
• Mistracking due to imperfect head alignment, causing another track to play muffled in the background during silences
• Tapes getting eaten in the player
• Foam pressure pads deteriorating, resulting in no tape to head pressure and muffled patchy sound (sounds like severe continuous cassette dropout)
• Splices falling off
• no rewind
• no fast forward either on most machines
• the minority of fast forwarding machines were really not-fast forward, as the 8 track cassette mecha couldnt handle switching between play speed and high speed.
• Long silences due to having to squeeze albums into 4 sides
• tangling in the cartridge occasionally occurred.
• Poor hf response and high hiss levels on most players - levels that are considered entirely unacceptable today, but were accepted at the time, due to shortage of better options
• No effective head cleaning system
  • head cleaning carts were common, but only effective to a limited degree
  • the minority of abrasive head cleaners worked better to some extent, but whether it was wise to use them regularly on the tape heads was another matter.
• Early 70s tapes shedded a significant amount of oxide, making regular head cleaning necessary

In short it was a format of its time, when nothing better was available, but as compact cassette fidelity improved they left 8 tracks behind due to 8 track's numerous problems. Tabby 11:24, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, though many of those issues were from poor hardware and tape design. Cheap cassette players could be pretty frightful, too, though admittedly not as bad, as stereo eight players and media were more complex. --128.119.17.102 (talk) 19:48, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Still beingproduced in USA

Article should be clarified to state that new 8 tracks are still being made by numerus sellers. I have an Everclear 8 track. Any CD can be dubbed onto an 8 track and that is NOT bootleg if done for the owner of the CD for his personal use. John celona 17:16, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

So its possible to still buy new 8-tracks? Do they sell blank ones anywhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.188.240.123 (talk) 19:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes. On Ebay. 68.224.206.168 (talk) 18:15, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Fair use rationale for Image:Sexpistols8track.JPG

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BetacommandBot (talk) 08:36, 15 January 2008 (UTC)