Talk:Stealth aircraft

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Stealth aircraft article.
Article policies
AVIATION This article is within the scope of the Aviation WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Aviation Portal
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.
MILHIST This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see lists of open tasks and regional and topical task forces. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the quality scale.

Contents

[edit] Error

"An F-117 was also detected by a British ship during the first Gulf War, in this case because the wavelength of the radar was twice the length of the aircraft. This caused the entire aircraft to act as a dipole, leading to a very strong radar return"

The F-117 is over 20m long, so was the radar transmitter 40m wide? Seems unlikely! Guinnog 20:42, 19 April 2006 (UTC) It says elsewhere that components inside Stealth planes may acts dipoles. That makes the dipole about 1m say, which is reasonable for a radar antenna. But if this is true ( and I can't see why the British radar might be unique )then Stealth planes are easy to detect in any case . 145.253.108.22 14:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

40m wide radar transmitter? Read this: Wavelength 72.220.222.195 —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 01:47, 30 September 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Comment on List of Stealth aircrafts

It seems to me that there has been an effort by some editors to elongate the list. Honestly, US is the only stealth aircraft producing country currently.

It's unnecessary to put aircrafts that "kinda" look stealthy. Some of them aren't stealthy at all.

(Wikimachine 04:58, 7 July 2006 (UTC))


If you would actually read the articles associated with each of the aircrafts (sic) you deleted, you would see that there is rationale to their inclusion in the list that extends beyond "kinda" look stealthy. I'm fixing the list to the way it was. Give Peace A Chance 05:04, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

[edit] A lot of what press calls stealth is simply reduced RCS

We must differentiate between the few "full" stealth aircraft like the F-117 and B2 and the many limited radar signature (reduced RCS) planes like F-22, JSF, MiG 1-44 or Rafale. Because of the great cost and awkwardness of operation with true full stealth, the future of manned combat planes is with reduced RCS. Unmanned planes are more likely to become full stealth however, as the lack of a cockpit and canopy simplifies stealth design and their lower manouverability and lack of onboard brain means complete non-detection is more desirable. In a manned plane you can count on the pilot to do impressive aerobatics if needed, to save his/her own precious rear from a SAM. So full stealth is less desirable there, they choose supercruise instead.

So I split the manned list into full stealth and reduced RCS paragraphs and also added the Rafale, which is low RCS (and quite beautiful, as you would expect from a chic french airplane).

The swedes claim JAS-39 Gripen is low radar observability, which is laughable if you look at its boxy air intakes, so I did not include that. 195.70.32.136 18:45, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Full Stop - Define "Full Stealth"

What's full stealth? Give a citation for it, or it's getting deleted. This article is a horrible accumulation of original research and speculation. Not suprising given the secret nature of it, but still, this is fairly bad. --Mmx1 22:35, 11 August 2006 (UTC) Stealth is the science of reduced radar cross-section,reduced dependence on aerofoil lift and reduced dependence on chemical propulsion. Demonstrated on B2A during 1999 UK. This article almost seems like disinformation. One of the potential drawbacks is defecting? This has never happened with any stealth aircraft. Only a Mig 25 that I am aware of (not stealth, though advanced for its time). Also, bombers like the B-2 very rarely circumnavigate the globe on an 19 hour flight based on a tactical mission. Instead many such aircraft B-1's, B-2's are on standbye in and around hot spot regions. The article also refers to shooting a stealth down with a canon mounted on an airliner. That is hard to do if you can't detect a plane on radar. The days of sacrificing performance for stealth are over...as evidenced by newer designssuch as the F/A - 22 an YF-23. Survivable future combat systems will combine stealth (visual, acoustic, ir, and radar) combined with supercruise and high performance to render a very low probability of intercept. Future stealth aircraft will be very lethal combat systems. 143.166.255.17 01:40, 16 August 2006 (UTC)Hans

No, this article is the way it is because the people that know, don't tell. And the people that write, don't know jack shit. I fall into the "I have better things to do than speculate on highly classified info" camp; but it's sort of amusing to watch. --Mmx1 01:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)


I have tagged this article for expert review. Besides lack of source citations, it has undefined categories, technical errors, and seems to portray a negative POV on the subject. As it stands, I don't see any reason to have such an article as this; it could be more tidily handled in the Stealth technology article. --Askari Mark | Talk 04:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
Well, I will help if I have time. I by no means expert, rather technical enthusiasts. Because, it may take a long time before I start, I provide some good paper : [1], [2], [3]. In these paper, explanations are quite good. Try to see them. Draconins 12:27, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Cleanup work

I've tagged this more accurately. Not only does it read like a school essay, it also contains enough bullet points that Jimbo may start having to ration them. Paragraphs, people. Sourced, verified paragraphs. Chris Cunningham 00:30, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

"In July 1999 two days prior to the Royal International Air Tattoo at RAF Fairford UK, a single B2A Spirit penetrated UK airspace at 01.30 hours. Passing overhead reporting point Whisky Delta 2 at approx. 250 feet it was traveling at just above stalling speed and was completely silent. The anterior half of the aircraft structure was covered in a green-white condensation cloud." I noticed this tacked into a bulletted bit in the Drawbacks section. Da hell is this?Dxco 01:37, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

No idea. I've just removed it though as it didn't seem to fit anywhere in the article (which I agree is of poor quality). --Nick Dowling 06:36, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Star Trek

Where the hell do we get 'plasma screens' on russian aricraft? Is there a basis for this ( apart form watching too much Star Trek )? 145.253.108.22 14:10, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Well, it is theoretically possible to create a "plasma bubble" around an object that traps incoming radio waves, thus getting the RCS of zero. Two problems with this idea are too big to be currently feasible. First, it's really hard to maintain the plasma around an object and aircraft's small size makes it difficult to carry all necessary equipments. Second, any object surrounded by plasma literally "shines" to someone watching it. It's almost like wearing black clothes to hide in the dark and then carrying a lantern around to find the way.--Revth 09:03, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] From a page comment

User:69.88.253.62 added this in-page on 19:14, 7 March 2007:

[I don't have enough time to incorporate this fact in, but the F-117 is able to carry AIM-9's. Someone with more time should be able to fix this.]

Chris Cunningham 20:41, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Question

Can stealth aircraft glide relatively silently, with engines off? kabbelen 22:31, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Welcome! First, new questions should be posted at the bottom of a talk page, rather than the top (so I have taken the liberty to move it).
As to your question, it would have more to do with the design of the airplane's aerodynamics, flight controls and – particularly – the engines, not whether the airplane was "stealthy". Tactically, I'm not sure you would want to turn off your engines in mid-flight; it could make you an easy target for an enemy fighter who could visually acquire you. Askari Mark (Talk) 23:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] missing?

The list of full stealh manned vehicles does no include the B-2. I assume this was just an oversight. Rugz 19:12, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Also no mention of British Aerospace's 'Grove'. Perhaps it has morphed into something else since then. 160.84.253.241 06:57, 1 May 2007 (UTC)


[edit] Sidewinders on the F-117

Theoretically the AIM9 could be used for defense, but the F117 would be toast when the wingman (or wingmen) of whatever was being shot at would see the trail of the missile, likely the aircraft, and have a nice clear radar return from the open weapons bay. The F117 at the same time can't hit afterburners to get out of dodge, and some opposing aircraft could likely do barrel rolls around an F117 attempting a max angle of attack turn. Aki Korhonen 03:48, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Mark Askari, I recommend you check your sources on the use of these missiles. It's not worth it for me to keep correcting you. But I recommend you read my comments on my personal page on the responsibilities of those who cut content other than vandalism.Aki Korhonen 03:33, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
By the way, I never intended the wording to be such that it could be interpreted to include use of Sidewinders on a ground target. Aki Korhonen 03:45, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

One of the basic wikipedia guidelines is that all articles should consist of referenced material only. i.e. content should be backed up by citing reliable sources in order to prevent "original research". Please see Wikipedia:Attribution, Wikipedia:Original research. In this case, theorising as to what the real purpose of the AIM9 is would constitute "original research" and should not be included in the article. --Deon Steyn 07:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree. However I was under the impression that Mark Askari's objections were not based on lack of references but on his view that the Sidewinders are for self defence. There are several references to the Sidewinders and their application purposes that are available via standard internet searches.Aki Korhonen 15:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
My mistake on the GA; that was a suggestion elsewhere by someone else. Operationally, F-117s are escorted by fighters, so the purpose of having such missiles on it is purely for self-defense against "leakers" based on the principle that some means of defense is better than none at all. As for using it against AEW&C aircraft or such, those too are protected by fighters, and an aircraft not designed for air-to-air combat would be too vulnerable against them to risk. I should clarify that the USAF has indicated that Sidewinders can be carried internally, but other sources report that they can also be carried on wing pylons (and some of these sources say they cannot be carried internally). External carriage would seem unlikely since it would have a negative impact on its stealth qualities. Enemy ground-based air defenses and air force would have to be seriously weakened, but fighters not completely suppressed, and there would need to be a scarcity of friendly fighters available. In such a rare situation, their carriage would make some sense. I doubt that the carriage of AAM was thought through more than a vague desire for some form of self-defense capability that wouldn't need a more sophisticated and expensive radar with the necessary AI modes. It's pretty much the same reason guns are still installed in fighters, even though the odds that two modern, high-speed jets would be dogfighting in such close range is extremely low. Askari Mark (Talk) 17:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Removal of Reduced RCS Design Section

I would like to remove this entire section. It really is meaningless. What is the threshold for inclusion in this list?? I would also like to thin out the full stealth list. Some of those entries are pretty suspect. Any objections/comments???--Downtrip (talk) 05:02, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Disagree. It refers to designs –while not fully stealth– that resulted in a reduced RCS, which is after all the aim of stealth designs. — Deon Steyn (talk) 08:43, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Downtrip changes

Can we please discuss changes made by the editor User:Downtrip, because the situation is teetering on an edit war. I don't agree with two paragraphs added by this user. The first centre on the intro to which has added a blurb on the F22 when the F22 is but one example of stealth aircraft and not even a very good one at that (it's a compromise). If an example HAS to be cited an F117 would be more appropriate. Can we rather keep the section as it was? My second concern is with the capabilities claimed following directly on the new example of the F22.

an aircraft can be made whose characteristics are such that even the most powerful and sophisticated radars cannot detect them at a great enough distance or track them accurately enough or soon enough to be able to effectively fire upon the stealthy aircraft before it makes its attack

There is no citation provided for this dubious statement. I don't see how anyone can make claims pertaining to the capabilities of the most powerful and sophisticated radars. These capabilities would be highly classified and vary between many companies and nations. Without citation this section had to be changed. — Deon Steyn (talk) 05:45, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

    • "the sky is blue and the sun goes down at night" Do we need citations for the obvious?--Downtrip (talk) 03:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
"The world's most powerful radars can't adequately track stealth aircraft" is something quite different. — Deon Steyn (talk) 06:01, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
To add to that, this very page mentions several common technologies (e.g. bi/multi- static radars) and an actual current radar system, the SMART-L which claims to be able to effectively track stealth aircraft. Your citation doesn't back up this claim and the SMAR-L in fact contradicts is completely. I have refined it to qualify the radars in you paragraph to be conventional radars. – Deon Steyn (talk) 06:43, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments on "Reflected Waves" Section

This section discusses the role of passive radar against stealth designs and the use of TV and FM radio frequencies in particular. People keep changing the section to state that the use of these frequencies causes resonance. This is not true. TV signals typically have a wavelength of a few centimetres and FM has a wavelength of about 3m. An aircraft which is 20 or 30m in length will not have significant resonance. Far more relevant is the fact that it is difficult to make light-weight radar absorbent paints and materials at these frequencies, where designs typically rely on coatings being a quarter wavelength thick, or need ferrite, etc. A small cruise missile could plausibly resonant at FM frequencies, but not the type of aircraft being discussed here. Resonance is more likely at HF, where the major structures on the aircraft could be half a wavelength or so in size. Although remember, resonance can work against you as well as for you... Paul (talk) 06:51, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Comments to Deon

There no longer is any practical compromise in stealth designs when it comes to performance. Should you wish to include a statement to the contrary it should be backed up with a source. Your opinion is not enough. The B-2 can fly 12000 miles and drop 80 SDBs. Two of them can wreck an airforce, sink a battle fleet or decimate a mechanized division in a single mission. The F-22 can be used to take out enemy air defenses or attain air supremacy. They perform two totally different missions and they have different capabilities due to the missions they perform. The level of stealth in relation to th B-2 and F-22 is irrelevant to the missions they perform. They are both said to be stealthy enough. The USAF did state 2 years ago that the B-2 had a much greater level of stealth than an F-117, in fact twice as good. The F-35 is even stealthier then the B-2. In fact the F-22 is stealthier still.--Downtrip (talk) 04:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Here is a link that backs up what I am saying above. http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairfo/articles/20051125.aspx —Preceding unsigned comment added by Downtrip (talk • contribs) 04:41, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Okay, thanks for the link about the B2. The fact remains that if you built an aircraft with today's technology and you had absolutely no interest in it's stealthiness you would build an aicraft that performed much better than one which had to make concessions to stealth (funny materials, shapes etc.). — Deon Steyn (talk) 21:37, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

    • I am not so sure about that. Look at the SR-71, it had a very low radar cross section. It's no longer non aerodynamic shapes that make a jet stealthy. How much more maneuverable should the F-22 be? It's rated at 9.5Gs. The fact is that it's pointless to make it have any more performance than it already has because the human body can only take so much punishment from high G forces. As for speed it was said that the F-23 prototype was faster and stealthier than the F-22 but the F-22 was chosen instead. How much faster than M 2.0 do you need to go? What is the difference between a M 1.6 fighter and a M 2.0 fighter? Their missiles both travel at M 4.0 and pull 30gs. The whole idea about stealth is to not get into a dogfight in the first place. I think the two biggest enhancements to stealth lately is the ability to super cruise and AESA radars. These two advances enable modern stealth fighters to more effectively fight while remaining stealthy. So I guess I agree with you if engineers decided to build an aircraft where flight performance was the paramount requirement then it would be done, but that has nothing to do with stealth--Downtrip (talk) 04:48, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
      • This thread neglects to consider budget. No programme has an infinite budget, so compromises will always be required to deliver a capability to a certain cost. Whatever else stealth may or may not be, it is certainly not cheap. Therefore spending money on a stealth capability will inevitably prevent the budget from being spent on other aspects of aircraft capability. In that sense, stealth will always result in compromises. --Paul (talk) 11:02, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
        • I don't think it's really relevant because if you really look at what stealth brings it does in fact do the job for less cost than legacy aircraft. Lets first keep in mind that every time someone trots out the "astronomical" cost of the B-2 or the F-22 they neglect to take into account the effect that Congress has on the cost. They are the ones that fund inefficient production runs. It's not the air force that only wanted 21 B-2s or 187 F-22s. Build 750 as originally planned and the unit cost comes down. While no one knows the final cost of the F-35 we do know it is going to be cheaper than the F-22 if only for the fact that it's production run is much bigger. Second lets keep in mind that all of these planes have other cutting edge tech besides stealth built in which adds to cost. Last consider the purpose of these planes and the fact that now it takes one or two of them to perform the same mission that that required literally dozens of legacy aircraft to perform in the past.--Downtrip (talk) 06:29, 17 February 2008 (UTC)