Talk:Stadtholder

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[edit] The meaning of Stadtholder

I disagree that it actually would matter what the word 'stadtholder' ('Stadhouder') means in modern Dutch. The meaning of the word has not changed, even though the meaning of its components has. The meaning 'city holder' makes no sense in the historical context explained in the article. I would like to see someone prove that 'city holder' should be the actual translation. Otherwise, I feel it should be changed back again to 'place holder'. This previously unsigned comment (sorry) was made by: Tom 10:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC)

yes, if you compare cognates in other Germanic languages like German, the most likely meaning is indeed "placeholder", German "(an)statt" akin to English "(in)stead". And if you compare it with what they say in the Dutch version: "Het woord stadhouder betekent letterlijk plaatsbekleder (Duits: Statthalter), net als overigens het uit het Frans afkomstige woord luitenant (lieutenant, 'lieu' = plaats, 'tenant' = houdend)." This even suggests that it is a calque of French Lieutenant which literally means "Place-holder" as well. Crix 14:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

It is indeed simply a direct translation.--MWAK 13:13, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, i do think that we should mention both translations, in fact "plaatsbekleder" is the name of a person that rules an area that could be called a city, (Dutch: stadhouder betekend voor Nederlanders een persoon die de orde behoudt (leiding geeft) in een stad, niet in een dorp, gehucht of provincie, maar een stad, en eventueel het gebied om die stad. En ik weet dat de geschiedenis boeken dit liever niet zo noemen, maar eigenlijk is de burgemeester er min of meer van afgeleid) te best translation (i think) would be mayor or Governor. --Rick Smit 10:46, 10 May 2007 (UTC)

Well, "stad" in "stadhouder" is not directly derived from the meaning of "stad" as "city", but from the more general meaning of "location" or "place"; the folk etymology is irrelevant here.--MWAK 13:22, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

The original meaning of the word "Stadt" may have been better preserved in German than in Dutch. From the dictionary I get is the following:

does not take place -- findet nicht statt

in his place -- an seiner statt

instead -- statt dessen

instead -- statt dessen; dafuer

instead of -- statt

instead of -- statt dessen

instead of -- statt; anstatt

it takes place -- es findet statt

please send us instead -- bitte senden sie statt dessen

the exhibition will include... -- im Rahmen der Ausstellung finden... statt;

this fair takes place in Frankfurt -- diese Messe findet in Frankfurt statt

to declare on oath -- Eides Statt

It looks like that the German word "Statt" is more related to "instead" or a place (or position) as in "replacement", than with a city or a location.
The closest translation of "Stadtholder" I can come up with is "Replacement" or "Substitute", i.e. someone who replaces the king or boss, or perhaps "Representative", someone who represents the king. See also Synonym for locum tenens JdH 15:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Split

Is there a separate article on the office of a steward so far? No. Should this article be spli? Not at present. This is the English article corresponding to nl:Stadhouder and de:Statthalter. The English translation of these terms is "steward". All three articles treat the Low Countries case as a section. The article for the rank in the Low Countries in particular would be Stadtholders in the Low Countries, which at present redirects to a list article, but which could be independent. dab (𒁳) 15:05, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

It turns out that there is allready an article Statthalter that discusses the office in Austria. There is also a Steward (office) that discusses the general concept. So it turns out that there are 3 articles on pretty much the same subject? Perhaps Statthalter and Steward (office) should be merged with this article to create a more comprehensive article on the concept and office of Stadtholder, similar to de:Statthalter, in which the Dutch Stadtholders and Drots would be a section. There have of course been similar offices in other times and places, such as Satrap and Prefect. Suggestions are appreciated. JdH 18:58, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

if we're going to merge the articles, the result should obviously reside at the English title, "steward". As it is, this article is the main article of the "Dutch" section at steward (office) -- I don't see the problem. We have a main article, observing WP:SS, and regional sub-articles such as this one. dab (𒁳) 17:21, 8 July 2007 (UTC)