Talk:St Leonard's, Shoreditch
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[edit] Some caveats about the article
Re: 'The name of Shoreditch is thought to indicate that the nearby ditch was a sewer'.
Do we need the etymology of 'Shoreditch' here? This is given in the Shoreditch article. The etymology given is misleading anyhow. Though the 'Shore' of Shoreditch might mean 'sewer', the word 'sewer' in medieval times could be applied to any watercourse: drain or river. There is indeed a possiblity that it refers to the headwaters of the Walbrook in Curtain Road.
Re: 'The church was founded in the mediaeval period, near a priory'
I think that the church came before the priory! It is the old parish church of the village of Shoreditch and is presumably of very ancient origin. Colin4C 10:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- Caveat away :) Both come from the external link - http://ourpasthistory.com/london/St_leonards_shoreditch.htm
- I thought the transference of Orange and Lemons from Fleetditch to Shoreditch was interesting - Fleetditch was also a sewer. At that time, of course, virtually any open watercourse near a settlement was also a sewer - more so in a heavily inhabited area like London. The etymology is mentioned in Shoreditch, but the external link also says "The earliest known reference is to 'Soerditch' in the mid twelfth century, and this may have meant a sewer."
- I also got the impression that the priory came first from the external link - "Originally a medieval foundation, probably associated with a nearby Priory, St Leonards Church..."
- If you have better knowledge, and particularly if you can provide better sources, please edit away. -- ALoan (Talk) 11:21, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
I'll try and dig up some references. Meantime I'd just like to say that the source's statement 'probably associated with a nearby priory' is not equivilant in meaning to 'was founded...near a priory'. There is no temporal reference in the source. And note the 'probably'! A bit of doubt creeping in there.....As far as I'm aware there is documentary evidence that the priory (of Halliwell) was founded in the 12th century but no documentary evidence whatsoever regarding the time of the foundation of the church. This latter feature is fairly common with churches and usually suggests that they were founded sometime pre-1066 before the keeping of documentary records became common. If it was built at the same time as the priory it is a bit of a mystery why the priory was documented and the church not....Colin4C 13:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Found a reference. According to Keith Sugden in 'Under Hackney: The Archaeological Story' (n.d.) (published by 'Friends of Hackney Archives') - page 33 'The church may have a Saxon origin'. And according to the same book (page 36) the priory was 'founded between 1133 and 1162'....Colin4C 14:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
- It is always good to have better sources :)
- I have found this, which says that "St Leonards Church had lost its medieval images of the saints and the Virgin Mary at the Reformation and the chantry chapel founded by the Elrington family in 1482 ", and this, which says "ST LEONARDS SHOREDITCH The site has been occupied by a church since the 1100s", and this, which says that "St.Leonards Shoreditch is the third church on that site"... Perhaps there was a Saxon church, that was replaced with the medieval one next to the priory? On the other hand, I have also seen the priory called St Leonards, and the road is Holywell Street. -- ALoan (Talk) 15:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
Your first reference is a good one. Otherwise I think we are caught in a drift of 'factoids' and elisions. I think for instance that a supposed 12th century century date for the church is an elision of the fact that this is the first time that anybody bothers to mention that there is such a place as Shoreditch. Do you know Shoreditch? The site of the priory is on the other side of the road from the church and a bit farther to the south. According to Sugden (p 36) it was dedicated to St John and called 'Halliwell' or 'Holywell' cos it had a Holy Well on its site (makes sense). A separate place entirely. Anyway, the date of Shoreditch church is SUPPOSITION. There is no documentary or archaeological evidence, all we can do is say whether we think one date or another is more or less likely....Colin4C 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
On the (speculative) 'Sewer-Ditch' etymology again, to re-iterate, isn't it better placed in the main Shoreditch article? Our present article, I presume, is about the church rather than the district of Shoreditch itself. Otherwise we might start chasing hares trying to relate this supposed ditch or sewer to the church and end up falling in it ourselves...Colin4C 15:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
