Talk:Spirited Away/Archive 1

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[edit] Added section markers

I added sections in place of the original rules, and IDed the commenters (I think I got them right; they're mostly anons anyway. —wwoods 06:55, 5 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Themes

This movie is about the personal growth of a 10 year old kid. The way she change, the way she overcome difficulties, etc. (from an IMDB talk page) --[ Ed Poor 12:06, 11 October 2002]

I also felt more <<traditional miyazaki>> themes were dealt with, ecology in particular (river god cleaning scene), as well as the contrast between the modern and traditional world. --[ 81.57.245.19 19:09, 8 May 2004]

I added some more themes and expanded the preexisting ones, along with citing a few reliable references. Do you think that is sufficient to remove the 'unreferenced' tag? Tokidoki27 13:45, 13 September 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Kanji

Wouldn't her name be written in Japanese characters, not Chinese ones? --rmhermen

'Kanji' literally means 'Chinese character'. --Brion 19:51 Oct 11, 2002 (UTC)

Sweet Lady, NO! The Japanese use kanji in many places, in this case with written personal names. Besides, if it were written in one of the phonetic kana scripts Yubaba wouldn't be able to totally change the pronunciation of "Chihiro" to "Sen" by simply lifting some of the characters off the page.

--[ 213.94.233.111 14:33, 18 December 2004 ]

She could actually. (see below) - Phorque 11:56, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

"She is deprived of her name Chihiro (literally means a thousand fathoms) and is given a new name, Sen (literally means a thousand) (Chi and Sen use the same Kanji. Hence, Sen is actually a part of her name, Chihiro.)" [1]

I think you misunderstood, Phorque. Look again what the above user is saying. When written in the kana scripts the characters for sen (se, n) are not part of the characters for chihiro ( chi, hi, ro ). It is not possible to remove some of chi, hi, ro and end up with se, n. Zargulon 12:02, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I get it now. The kana don't match, the kanji do. So 荻野千尋 (ogino chihiro) appears on the paper, and Yu-baaba lifts off everything but 千, which can be Chi or Sen. I see now that the first user was arguing that chihiro should be written in japanese phonetics. My bad. - Phorque 10:27, 20 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yubaba inspired by Alice

Does anyone else find that Yubaba more closely resembles the Duchess from Alice in Wonderland, rather than the Queen of Hearts? The Duchess had the most important trait, a huge, ugly head. The Queen had a rather more normal head, and was more renowned for screaming, "Off with her head!" [ 128.216.1.8 17:30, 30 May 2005 ]

No - folks seem to miss that Baba Yaga is the classic European witch of the woods ... - Sparky 19:35, 3 March 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it possible she is inspired by both. Infact, there are actually a lot of similarities to Yubaba and Duchess. Including how the two act around their respective female protagonist. And the transformation to pig thing.

[edit] Miyazaki's retirement

I don't believe that Miyazaki really retired between Princess Mononoke and Spirited Away. See this FAQ from Nausicaa.net. While it's been widely reported that he announced his retirement after Mononoke, it's more true that he decided to change how he directed the films (as he was a very hands-on director.) His retirement after Spirited Away seemed more final, and only ended when they couldn't find the right person to direct Howl's Moving Castle. --24.19.116.37 14:08, 13 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] French DVD package

I removed the French DVD image: it's French and not English, it doesn't show any unique packaging the reader might be interested in, and two similar images already exist in the article. It would be nice if maybe higher resolution images of the screenshots from the back of the French DVD (or any DVD version) could be cropped out and included in the article... those would go along with the text. —Tarnas 01:00, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

[edit] Sequel?

Did anyone find Spirited away a littel long winded and pointless. The Movie was overall to me 4 stars but the ending left me empty and yearning for more. My older brother said the story procrastinated alot and that it didn't get to the point. My sister said it was a nice movie but seemed seemed like it was to short for 2 hours. I on the other hand thought the ending could have been extended. Why did Yubaba sister give Chihiro that magic scrunchy for her hair, she did't even use it, Maybe they could have added that to the movie's ending... Maybe Chihiro would have met Haku as a human neighbor when she got into her new house. Or maybe they could have made a flash back on Chihiro's life before she moved so that you could feel sorry for her moving. The ending left no emotion sad, happy or glad. Just...empty. Do you think they'll have a spirite away 2?

No. Miyazaki would not do that. And this is not the place for discussions of the film. elvenscout742 21:55, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Ghibi did a sequel of sorts to Whispers of the Heart with The Cat Returns, but Miyazaki had little if any connection to it (and it shows). That was one of the things I liked about the movie- the feeling that I wanted to know more about the world and its characters; and that they had their own lives and everything did not exist only to react with Chihiro. (Which unfortunately is way too rare with American animation.) Examples include Kamaji and Lin both wanted to ride the train, the train's service being cutback, all of the people riding the train, and the hinted antagonism between Lin and all of the other staff. It made for a fuller and more interesting world. (I do agree with the above about the hair ornament- it's brought up way too late to serve any purpose, but the Japanese version doesn't play it up so much as the dubbing suggests.) A sequel could be a mundane "Chihiro and family get to their new home after serveral days to find all of their stuff stolen" or a "Dorothy returns to OZ AGAIN and AGAIN" sort, but I would rather see more of the spirit world's charcaters, and what they do, and for this probably it would be better to focus on a different character. CFLeon 03:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

What does this discussion have to do with the article? Comme le Lapin 06:50, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

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[edit] Infobox

I thought I was removing italics, but apparently I removed the quotes instead. Regardless, I think that whatever baroque is needed should be supplied by the template, so that the parameter is just the plain title without any formatting etc. Shinobu 21:12, 19 December 2005 (UTC)

Shouldn't this infobox use the Anime movie infobox template, or is everyone happy with the plain film-infobox template? - Rob 15:44, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Either is fine I think, however if the anime infobox was used then the information on all the people involved would have to be replicated in the article. So it's a question of whether the format would look better and would the page then be getting too long. - Squilibob 10:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merge

It's been suggested that Chihiro (Spirited Away) be merged into this article. The current article is short, but I think it has potential. Suggestions? Kerowyn 05:37, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm trying to get a characters section going. For now she can be there but I'm sure there is potential for a full article on her. - Phorque 08:31, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Most of the characters have enough potential for their own articles. There is much to be said about the meanings and literary symbols that many such as No Face or Kamaji represent. Still, at this time, I'd think that all the characters can be adequately covered each as a section within a single article. Tenmiles 06:04, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Literal Title Verification

Could anyone who reads japanese please verify the literal translation of the title. I'm fairly positive that it is not "Sen and Chihiro's Spiriting Away" I've heard from a few sources that a more accurate translation would be "The Spiritual Disappearance of Sen and Chihiro" or "The Mysterious Disappearance of Sen and Chihiro." Can anyone verify? Dave 21:00, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Kamikakushi means spiriting away according to my dictionary. Its components are kami = gods, and kakusu=to hide something. But the word kamikakushi really does mean spiriting away as far as I can tell. Cupboard comes from "cup" and "board" but that doesn't mean that a cupboard is a board to put cups on. Go figure. Zargulon 22:59, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

But the term originally did refer to a shelf where you would put cups on, and that evolved to our modern version. This is very common in language. CFLeon 06:56, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, but it is not called a literal translation. You must be thinking of etymology. Zargulon 08:44, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

If you want a purely literal translation of the title, it does mean "Sen and Chihiro's Spiriting Away." As Zargulon rightly points out 神隠し (kamikakushi) is translated in most dictionarys as 'Spirited Away.' A more natural (and literal from my understanding of it's usage) English translation to my ears would be 'to vanish into thin air.' But that wouldn't make a good film title I guess... Barryvalder 13:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

In the article the meaning of the title is referred to as "the spiriting away of Sen and Chiriro" - I thought perhaps "Sen and the Spiriting Away of Chiriro" might make a little more sense? I mean Sen is never really spirited away. Chiriro was spirited away and "became" Sen... (random lurker)

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.2.215.190 (talk) 19:04, 28 December 2006 (UTC).

In my Japanese religion papers I've seen kamikakushi referred to as 'hidden by the gods', I feel the 'spirited away', though it fits beautifully, doesn't explain very well. Breen's dictionary(http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/wwwjdic.html) refers to it as both 'hidden by the gods' and 'mysterious disappearance' but the New Nelson only refers to it as 'hidden by the gods' (page 801, ISBN 0-8048-2036-8). I just wanted to provide the information since I'm quite new and loath to edit anything. Haec 17:42, 22 January 2006 (CET)

Having studied Japanese religion, you won't forget that the term gods tends to represent a different concept to the western mind than what Kami does in a Shinto-influenced understanding. The phrase "hidden by the gods" has the potential, therefore, to convey a meaning that may not be entirely accurate to the original intent. Tenmiles 06:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

The other day a sweet wrapper I was carrying got blown away. Neither me or my friend could locate it anywhere. She said it had been 'kamikakushi'. It's worth keeping in mind that the normal, everyday usage of the phrase has become a lot more mundane than the literal translation. This is partly why I earlier equated it with the English phrase 'to vanish into thin air.' Barryvalder 15:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Tenmiles and Barryvalder both have excellent points. (I do feel that the potential misunderstanding about kami is not due to the term gods but to people's inherent association with the word, but hell, the consequences are the same.) So, for the literal translation 'Mysterious disappearance' sounds best to me, especially since it carries the meaning of vanishing into thin air and being hidden by something beyond people's ken. What are your thoughts, people? Haec 00:59, 15 February 2006 (CET)

My thoughts are that 'The Spiriting away of Sen and Chihiro' is the best literal translation of the film title. I actually think it is a good translation for the sweet wrapper too, but I am *sure* it is the best translation for the film title. Furthermore, though it is interesting to have a discussion of the etymology of kamikakushi within Japanese, and the various occasions on which Japanese people might use "kamikakushi", it is highly unlikely that such a discussion will lead to a better literal English rendition of the film title than "The Spiriting Away of Sen and Chihiro", which is the topic of this thread. Maybe you guys should start a new thread for "origin and usage of the Japanese phrase kamikakushi". Zargulon 15:20, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree that I was probably getting a bit off-topic talking about the way Japanese people use the phrase kamikakushi in their everyday life. I was just trying to give some context. I also agree with you when you say it's the best translation for the film title, espcially given the content of the film (and not forgetting that the English title is Spirited Away). Barryvalder 12:50, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

We ended up off topic but I didn't mean to suggest it was your fault Barry. I found your anecdote interesting and informative. Zargulon 15:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

We did get carried away, didn't we? I also loved the story about the paper wrapper. I agree it's best for people's basic understanding to leave the 'spirited away' in the title. It's fortuitous the turn of phrase exists in English. Haec 00:54, 1 March 2006 (CET)

As a Japanese I can tell you that 'Sen' means 'uncountable' and 'Chihiro' means 'unfathomable' so 'Sen to Chihiro no' should not be translated simply as 'Sen to Chihiro's'. 58.1.98.192 20:00, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Sen and Chihiro are names, so they are left as is. Names are usually not translated, not even in literal translations. Shinobu 00:26, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Haku's Attitude

Regarding style, I note this passage at the end of the entry:
"Some fans suggest that Haku was only cold to her at certain times because he knew Yubaba was watching him and that they both could be punished if she knew that he helped Chihiro get into the bathhouse."
Is there any particular reason why we would want to maintain this statement in this form, specifically saying "some fans suggest"? It seems like this is an attempt at presenting the idea in the form of NPOV, which I respect, but which seems incongruous in this context. I will say that in my own viewing of the film, this was the assumption I made as well, but acknowledge that I cannot divine the author's actual intent; it is left to the viewing audience to interpret. Nevertheless, the use of the phrase "some fans suggest" seems to indicate that this is but one out of several plausible interpretations, each of which has merit. I have never heard any other explanation suggested, anywhere.
Based on the context of the relationship between the two characters as generally depicted throughout the film, and particularly by its resolution, it seems that the probability that Haku was being deliberately distant or aloof (in the pertinent scenes) purely as the result of some personality quirk is unlikely.
In the spirit of being bold, I have edited the line. If anyone chooses to revert it, I'd be interested in learning more about your opinions behind doing so. Tenmiles 08:40, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Yubaba, Yubaaba, Yu-baaba

Which is correct? The page has all three. —wwoods 03:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

In the english dubbed version she is "Yubaba" in the Japanese original it is correctly spelled "Yu-baaba". Definitely not "yubaaba", though. I'd vote we go with the japanese original although I'm sure others would differ with me on that. - Phorque 09:20, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

OK, I've actually gone with the convention "Yubaba" for all references except the one after the kanji spelling of her name seeing as the english dubbed version is the one most westerners have seen and she's referred to as "Yubaba" there. Everyone cool? - Phorque 09:39, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

And we also need consensus on Zeniiba versus Zeniba. I don't actually know which is correct in this case. Was she just "Zeniba" in the english-dubbed version?

They are "Yubaba" and "Zeniba" in the English subtitles. (Surely their names don't appear in writing in the dubbed version? Or are we perhaps talking about English-language credits here?) -- Picapica 12:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we're talking about how they are credited for the English dubbed version. - Phorque 14:27, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

OK. I'll have a look later. --Picapica 14:48, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Can confirm they are "Yubaba" and "Zeniba" in the on-screen English-language credits. --Picapica 21:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Gross

I have added several references to the article to verify the figures mentioned. I can't find the Gross sales figure of 250M $US anywhere though. The third reference has it at $230M $US. Can anyone back the 250 figure up with a link? - Squilibob 10:26, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

IMDB lists the US gross as of August 31, 2003 as $10,049,886. How could it have possibly grown to $250 million in only two years? ~MDD 46 96 04:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

No not the US gross, the worldwide gross. - Squilibob 07:34, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

I found it listed as $274,925,095 at Box Office Mojo. ~MDD 46 96 17:55, 25 January 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Sen translation

I believe in the Turner Classic Movies salute to Miyazaki, the co-host mentioned that the names of bathouse workers meant what their jobs were. So kamanji is 'boiler man', and so on. However, it says here that Sen meant 'a hundred.' I, being the lucky holder of a Japanese-English (and vice versa) dictionary, quickly looked through my dictionary to see what Sen meant, along with 'a hundred,' and saw that the symbol that's used here means '1000 thousand,' symbolizing the '8 million gods' that relax in the bathouse, to quote the Japanese sub. 71.3.44.235 14:13, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

[edit] No Face Vs. Noh Face

The thought came to me that the character's name is probably put as "Noh Face" rather than "No Face". Makes sense, with the mask. Someone should probably go in and change that. Paragone 03:08, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

The Japanese name for the character is "Kaonashi" (literally "no face"). Is this a term used in Noh? --日本穣 04:18, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

It should be No-Face, as it is spelled that way in the credits. The "Noh" business is something of an unintentional pun.Finite 20:22, 26 March 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Bizzarre

I found the movie to be bizzarre, even more so than most movies. At first, I thought that Ice Age should've won Best Animated, but I can understand now why this movie was chosen. It's innovative, whereas Ice Age is just another typical American animated picture. I guess the movie takes some getting used to. [unsigned]

I liked Spirited Away but I didn't really like the ending. It kinda went too fast. Yancyfry jr

Er.... who cares?--195.98.247.83 11:54, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

What does this discussion have to do with the article? Comme le Lapin 06:52, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Repetative references

Why does the article constantly refer to other stories when discribing almost every event in the plot? (ie. "and such-and-such happened, much like in The Little Mermaid") Its not needed and really funks up the article. I want to clean it out, if there are no objections. BethEnd 15:46, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Go for it, I've no problem with that. Finite 16:15, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Criticisms section

I removed the line about cheapened characters and simplified dialogue in the Criticisms section because they seemed overblown and uncited. Finite 15:35, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Answer to Phorque's question

Well, since you asked... Tud123. Shinobu 09:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Allegories

There are some possibilities for allegory in Miyazaki's characters:

This smells of original research to me. If it's not backed up with reliable published sources, I will remove it. Shinobu 13:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)