Talk:Sparkling wine

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A dictionary reference has little bearing to validity. Champagne is from Champagne in NE France just as Microsoft products come from Microsoft. Other Sparkling wines are Sparkling Wines and non Misrosoft Software is Software.

..........................

Champagne can be and is used to refer to any sparkling wine. So, I am reverting. Here's two dictionaries that support me:

Champagne

    A light wine, of several kinds, originally made in the
    province of Champagne, in France.
    [1913 Webster]
 
    Note: Champagne properly includes several kinds not only of
          sparkling but of still wines; but in America the term
          is usually restricted to wines which effervesce.
          [1913 Webster]

From WordNet (r) 1.7 [wn]:

 champagne
      n 1: a white sparkling wine either produced in Champagne or
           resembling that produced there [syn: {bubbly}]

Novalis 22:15, 23 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Contents 1 non-word 2 Merges 3 England 4 Romans and Charmat 5 Attribution note 6 Other comments 7 Thoughts on getting this up to a B 8 Korbel brothers and the origins of american sparkling wine

[edit] non-word

what the f... ist "Price Chamfiction II."??? -- Kku 15:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Merges

I've started the merge of the regional style into this article. TONS of work still need to be done to improve the format and prose of the article. I will be working on this article throughout the week with the hope of getting it to GA quality. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 02:44, 3 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] England

I think the opening para should be a little less surprised about English wine - we had quite major vineyards during Roman times, so that para could be cleaned up. OTOH, some English fizz is now world class and deserves its own section in this article eg :

Best non-Champagne fizz at IWC : http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/21/nwine21.xml (and a second wine got gold) "In blind tests, Nyetimber Classic Cuvée is regularly rated more highly than leading champagnes" http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/10/28/nwine28.xml "I would prefer Nyetimber to all but the best champagnes" http://decanter.com/news/46424.html 'We have a patch of soil the Champenois would kill for,'

The Champenois had a bit of a Paris 76 moment with a blind tasting at which Nyetimber won, I'll see if I can dig up a reference FlagSteward 00:27, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I agree that England merits it own section. Feel free to add it. I was planning to myself once I have the free time. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:03, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

I only came here to add the possible Charmat process merger (everyone here should take a look at Talk:Champagne production for that discussion, it's an important one which also involves the proper name for that other article) but in passing I've just done a quick edit to get the UK stuff going in the right direction - no citations or anything I'm afraid, some of the ones above would be a start. Thinking more about

As an aside, well done on the work you've done here - the more I think about it, the more vital I think these general articles are for the Wine Project, in feeding new readers into the hierarchy of wine articles. As such, I think See Also:'s are particularly valuable for this kind of article - I've done one for the UK section. FlagSteward 10:36, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for starting that section. I'll see what I can do about sourcing. I have to say that English sparkling wine is intriguing and I wish there were more distributors importing it into the US. With the changing climate and global warming, I keep hearing positive stuff.Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:24, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't get too excited about it :-), it's definitely a minority interest even here, and Nyetimber is priced similarly to the mainstream Champagne brands - they're doing a major expansion at the moment, but I guess they don't need to worry about exports for now. But it's kinda fun, especially if there's any French about :-)) PS I've upped the assessment to a B, I guess that GA must be a matter of time. But I think it would make sense to unify all the subtypes into country sections, so that the UK and US sections would be joined by France, Italy, FSU etc for consistency FlagSteward 02:09, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

I thought the shocked, "England? WINE?!" in the first paragraph was very amusing, myself. I had Nyetimber at a sparkling wine tasting a couple of years ago, and would like to know more about it. Does anybody know enough to write an article? By the way, we also had a Perrier-Joulet, and when tasted blind the Nyetimber was generally preferred. Just as an aside. --Raulpascal 18:45, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

---

If there is any injected gas the wine must be labeled as "Aerated Sparkling wine made with the addition of carbon dioxide".

I assume this is in just one jurisdiction? In which case it might make sense to say which one. I don't think I've ever seen this. -- richiau

[edit] Romans and Charmat

Though it should be noted that although the traditional method is more commonly used throughout the world, the Charmat method has been used in Italy since the ancient Roman Empire.

I was of the understanding that the Charmat method used technology that would be only found in post-Industrial Revolution society. Does anyone have information on Romans using a secondary fermentation method in metal vats to create sparkling (or even frissante) wines? If the Romans did so, would it not make sense to change the phrase in the above excerpt from "Charmat method," to "Charmat-style method" or something similar? Tthaas 16:03, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that the misunderstanding arises from the fact that producers of Prosecco Spumante (one of Italy's top Charmat method wines) like to boast that Prosecco has been around since ancient Roman times, as mentioned in the writings of Pliny the Elder - at best this may however refer only to prosecco as a grape variety, which is also used to produce still wines ("Prosecco Tranquillo") which is probably what the Romans drank. So I agree with you that it is unlikely that the Romans had devised a way to build the steel autoclaves used for the Charmat method, and have edited the paragraph accordingly. HAdG 21:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Something I disliked about the paragraph was the negativity surrounding the Charmat method. True, it is rather less poetic and more cost-efficient to have grapes ferment in large pressurised steel containers rather than in the bottle, but the wine obtained as a result is structurally different (typically: sweeter, fresher, fruitier - depending on the grapes used), and there is definitely no consensus that it is qualitatively inferior. Indeed, some Prosecco Spumante is produced by méthode Champanoise, but this wine is not at all regarded as being of better quality than the typical Charmat method Proseccos. I've re-worded the paragraph to remove this negativity. HAdG 21:00, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, the sentence at the top that says Metodo Italiano sparkling wines can be sold at a slightly lower prices than méthode champenoise wines. subtly attempts to suggest that these wines are of poorer quality. The sad reality is that the prices of both Champagne and Prosecco di Cartizze are through the roof, and have nothing to do with production costs but are simply a result of high demand. Changed "sold" to "produced". And besides, the term "Metodo Italiano" is hardly used in Italy; the process is referred to as Metodo Charmat-Martinotti, crediting both the original inventor Martinotti and the later patent holder Charmat. HAdG 21:22, 20 April 2008 (UTC) //edit: sorry, that referred to another article, "sparkling wine production"

[edit] Attribution note

Some content is from the merged stub Sekt. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:34, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Other comments

"... the grape variety Pinot Noir is also permitted for use in the production of white cavas." Source: http://www.wein-plus.com/magazine/index.html?show=fullnews&nr=3911 GregF (talk) 16:38, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with merging all forms of sparkling wines, Champagne semi-sparkling --Wedwardes 22:19, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Thoughts on getting this up to a B

Well first and foremost, referencing is the big on. I take full responsibility for dropping the ball with this one. It was going to be one of my pet projects on cleaning up and expanding but I soon grew bored. :p Many of the major sparkling styles like Sekt, Asti etc need much more detail to merit the redirect going here. All in all, this article really needs a total rewrite. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 01:46, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Korbel brothers and the origins of american sparkling wine

Hi, I fixed some mistakes concerning the Korbel brothers and the american sparkling wine :

1 - The Korbel brothers weren't from Czechoslovakia because Czechoslovakia existed only from 1918 to 1993. In their nineteenth century era their country, Bohemia, was not yet a part of Czechoslovakia, which didn't yet exist, but a part of the Austrian-Hungarian Empire. Nevertheless they were czech people from Bohemia (just consult the external link I added to source that information : http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/F-Korbel-amp;-Bros-Inc-Company-History.html ). Only later, in 1918, Bohemia and other czech lands, along with Slovakia, will be a part of Czechoslovakia, but the Korbel's period is in no way related to the Czechoslovakian period.

2 - The Korbel brothers didn't immigrate in California in 1892, this is only the year in which they were supposed (according to the current version of the article) to begin production of sparkling wine in California. According to the page I formerly mentioned, they immigrated in 1852 and began production of sparkling wine in 1882, not in 1892. But this date (1882) doesn't come from the official Korbel website, so I didn't modified the former version of the article (1892). Could anybody check this source, please ?

3 - I added the source ( http://www.fundinguniverse.com/company-histories/F-Korbel-amp;-Bros-Inc-Company-History.html ) in the external links section ("On the origins of american sparkling wine").

343KKT Kintaro (talk) 06:47, 14 March 2008 (UTC)