Talk:Spanish missions in California/Archive01

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Contents

Kill their parents claim.

I think that such an extreme claim should be subject to strong WP:V scrutiny. The passage from the Catholic Encyclopedia, which I am guessing is the source, is suspect of bias in my opinion. A few 'bias' flag phrases picked out of the passage: "The most obvious characteristic of this culture was its negative quality...", "all their arts were of the crudest development...", "Both mentally and physically they represented one of the lowest types on the continent. ", "In this and certain other detestable customs the coast tribes were like the California Indians generally, whom Powers characterizes, in their heathen condition, as perhaps the most licentious race existent." Hardly phrases one would expect to read from an objective source. Is there another more neutral source to back up the infanticide and parent killing claim? Lacking more neutral citation, perhaps we should remove those claims. BruceHallman 17:20, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

My thoughts on this mirror your own, though I haven't had the time to run this to ground. I'd support removing the text from the article until and unless some unimpeachable sourcing is provided.--Lord Kinbote 03:01, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
Moved here from article page, this section needs some WP:V work:
The ruin of the missions and the invasion of the Americans caused the natives to die by the thousands; however, the southern bands were protected by the desert environment and survived in greater numbers. Contributors to their decline were their original practices of infanticide and abortion which continued to be so prevalent that even the most strenuous efforts of the missionaries hardly succeeded in halting these practices. Among the Gallinomero, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia[1], aged parents were sometimes choked to death by their own children.
In the first clause, 'The ruin of the missions...' seems contrary to the research I have read, as drastic declines in native population occured at the time of the onset of the missions, and prior to the ruin of the missions, and the 'invasion of the Americans' attribution seems odd and vague, when did this invasion of Americans occur? (1840's?) The 'however, the southern bands...' clause seems like it may be original research, though it also seems quite plausible. The second sentence appears to be based on the Catholic Encyclopedia, which in my opinion, needs an second independent reference to confirm its crediblity BruceHallman 15:47, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Chronology of intro

I guess I haven't been following my watchlist close enough, but the second paragraph of the introduction leads with the end of the missions!? Logically, the introduction should describe the beginning, middle and ending of the mission period (in that order).

Going back in article history, I see that the second paragraph used to read:

"Since 1493, the Kingdom of Spain had maintained a number of missions throughout Nueva España (New Spain, consisting of Mexico and portions of what today are the Southwestern United States) in order to facilitate colonization of these lands. In this context, the term "California" is used to refer to the territory that comprises Alta California (chiefly the current U.S. state of California) and the Mexican states of Baja California and Baja California Sur. It was not until the threat of invasion by Tsarist Russia in 1765, however, that the King felt such installations were necessary in Upper ("Alta") California. Between 1774 and 1791, the Crown sent forth a number of expeditions to explore the Pacific Northwest, but by 1819 chose to limit its "reach" to Northern California due to the costs involved in sustaining such remote outposts.

This did a pretty good job of describing the beginning of this mission period, I have no idea why it was edited out, and I propose putting it back in at the second paragraph location, any thoughts? Is that 1493 date correct? BruceHallman 15:57, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Good catch, I've been too busy to pay a whole lot of attention to WP lately so this one went right by me. I've restored the deleted material.--Lord Kinbote 19:10, 14 August 2006 (UTC)
The introduction could probably use some editing for better 'flow' now. But, I just restored the 'second paragraph' deleted out on July 23 (now to a 'third paragraph' position) as it fills in the 'middle portion' of the chronology. The fourth paragraph serves a 'end of the period' chronology role. I am ambivalent about the 'lost their protectors' American period paragraphs at the end of the intro because it spans time subsequent to the 'mission period', but I am OK with it in or out.


religion/epidemics

I removed these sentences for fact and POV checking:

"Along with religion, the Europeans brought with them diseases that the indigenous peoples had never been exposed to, and consequently had no immunity against. By 1767, epidemics of measles, plague, smallpox, typhus, and venereal diseases had decimated the native population. Out of an initial population of as many as 50,000, only some 5,000 are thought to have survived. " BruceHallman 16:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

For NPOV, it should start "Along with the Catholic religion..." as certainly indigenous religions preexisted the European contact. Also, I was reading the Milliken book over the weekend, and there does not appear to be historical evidence of widespread mortality from "epidemics of measles", plague, smallpox or typhus in California circa 1775-1833, Baja probably was similar. There is historical data about mortality and the drop in population, especially from a drop in the reproductivity rate, still births, infant mortality, nutritional issues and syphilis. BruceHallman 16:05, 28 September 2006 (UTC)

Not all the items listed were missions

There should be a portion where the churches like Rancho Las Flores and La Placita are broken out, as they weren't actual missions. --evrik (talk) 23:23, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

This hinges on the definition of "mission". The article states: "The Spanish Missions in California (more simply referred to as the "California Missions") comprise a series of religious outposts established by Spanish Catholic on the Franciscan Order between 1769 and 1823 to spread the Christian doctrine among the local Native Americans. " It seems to me, that any Catholic church seeking to indoctrinate California Indians could be called a 'mission'. BruceHallman 23:41, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I have to look for the official defintion, but there are only 21 alata Califonia missions. --evrik (talk) 23:58, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

I didn't know there was an official definition. Official by which authority? BruceHallman 19:27, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
All of the listed settlements were either missions or asistencias ("satellite" or "sub" missions, sometimes referred to as "contributing chapels" — small-scale missions that regularly conducted Divine service on days of obligation but lacked a resident priest) with the exception of Mission Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles, which was intended to be a sub-mission to San Gabriel.--Lord Kinbote 18:51, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
  • There are only 21 buildings considered missions.

This is the list in chronologic order:

  1. Mission San Diego de Alcala (1769)
  2. Mission San Carlos Borroméo de Carmelo (1770)
  3. Mission San Antonio de Padua (1771)
  4. Mission San Gabriel Arcángel (1771)
  5. Mission San Luis Obispo (1772)
  6. Mission San Francisco de Asís (1776)
  7. Mission San Juan Capistrano (1776)
  8. Mission Santa Clara de Asís (1777)
  9. Mission San Buenaventura (1782)
  10. Mission Santa Barbara (1786)
  11. Mission La Purisíma Concepción (1787)
  12. Mission Santa Cruz (1791)
  13. Mission Nuestra Señora de la Soledad (1791)
  14. Mission San José (1797)
  15. Mission San Juan Bautista (1797)
  16. Mission San Miguel de Arcángel (1797)
  17. Mission San Fernando Rey de España (1797)
  18. Mission San Luis Rey de Francia (1798)
  19. Mission Santa Inés (1804)
  20. Mission San Rafael Arcángel (1817)
  21. Mission San Francisco de Solano (1823)
As a reference look at:
--evrik (talk) 19:39, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I can read the list; what about the definition of asistencia above do you not understand? These facilities are as important to the overall comprehension of the mission system and its goals and therefore merit inclusion.--Lord Kinbote 20:00, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

There are only 21 missions. Include them in the article, but the rest were never called missions. Never. Call them iglesia, church, whatever, but they were never missions. --evrik (talk) 20:07, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

And you are citing what authority on the above?--Lord Kinbote 00:11, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
  • There are many ... how many more do you want?

The California Missions Foundation is dedicated to the preservation, protection and maintenance of California's 21 historic missions.

[2]

Is there a distinction between mission and Mission? The question probably boils down to whether we define a mission based on a functional criteria (did it serve a missionary function), or a Mission based on a nominal criteria (its name or title). Personally, I favor the functional criteria. If the establishment served the function of a mission, it was a mission. BruceHallman 22:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

  • I think the issue on this page has been resolved withe the creation of this section Spanish_missions_in_California#Asistencias_in_geographical_order.2C_north_to_south. In truth, the common usage of the term mission in California referes to the 21 missions. The rest were either churches or asistencias (sub-missions). There is a great deal of literature out there about this. I'm satisfied with the set up of the article as it is right now. --evrik (talk) 04:42, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I am not satisfied. Could someone please answer my question: Is there a distinction between mission and Mission? BruceHallman 16:24, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Bruce, take a look at Mission (station) which I believe defines mission; this is the function that Nuestra Señora Reina de los Angeles served when it was originally founded, and before it became a parish church. Mission is part of an official designation and a proper name when combined with (for example) San Diego de Alcalá to arrive at Mission San Diego de Alcalá.--Lord Kinbote 19:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I have trouble understanding 'official designation', without knowing who is the 'official'. Hopefully, Wikipedia can try to sort out the reality of the history of the missions from the myths and the conventional wisdom about the history of the missions. Although I get the concept of WP:V, I hope (wish?) that the simple fact that 21 keeps getting repeated (true or not) doesn't trump an empirical defintion. BruceHallman 20:01, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Leffingwell does a good job of documenting most of the names as founded (likely based on the church records); the next time I am in Santa Barbara I plan on spending some time at the mission archives to try and resolve the few outstanding "question marks." Engelhardt's many works also substantiate these issues, though they are often difficult to gain access to due to their age and scarcity.--Lord Kinbote 20:29, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Tribal names

Any thoughts on whether the tribal names in the tables of each mission are correct? For example, for Mission San Diego de Alcala, it's listed as Diegueno, not Kumeyaay, but the link is to Kumeyaay. The term Diegueno (like Juaneno, etc.) is the term the Spanish gave to associate with the closest mission. Should it be changed to Kumeyaay, or Kumeyaay/Diegueno? Any thoughts? --Anietor 05:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

  • They're supposed to be the Spanish names; no reason both Spanish and native names couldn't be included, I guess. Mdhennessey 05:55, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with using Spanish names. But out of curiousity, why are they "supposed to be" the Spanish names? --Anietor 06:10, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I may have read the infobox criteria incorrectly. Mdhennessey 06:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, I see you've started putting both names in. That second line for "Spanish name" was already there, so makes sense to use it. I think it looks pretty good! --Anietor 06:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, you had a good idea so I thought I'd act on it right away! Mdhennessey 06:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)