Talk:Soviet space program conspiracy accusations

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 Soviet space program conspiracy accusations is part of WikiProject Soviet Union, an attempt to better organise information in articles related to the Soviet Union. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.
Start This article has been rated as Start-Class on the class scale.
Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the importance scale.

This article was splitted from Yuri Gagarin because it is almost unrelated to him. See previous dicussion of it on Talk:Yuri Gagarin.

Crocodealer 17:40, 27 April 2006 (UTC) Why is this article written with far more sympathy for the allegations than the Apollo landing hoax articles??? Why hasnt anyone discredited any of the claims made here? Or rather why are these discreditations not listed? 123.255.55.45 13:07, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

That's simple. There is no possibility that the Apollo Moon landings were hoaxes. In an open society (i.e., the United States) a conspiracy of such magnitude could not possibly be contained. Also, there is no way to fake the low gravity effects easily visible to everyone watching the Apollo XI Moon landing on television. On the other hand, the Soviet Union was a government with a long history of lies, and had a substantial record of efforts to conceal uncomfortable truths. They almost never permitted news stories of disasters within the USSR to be reported, and the loss of a cosmonaut would be such a disaster. In summary, the Apollo Moon Hoax theory is pure rubbish, while the theory that cosmonauts orbited the Earth before Gagarin, died in the attempt, and were never mentioned, is quite believable. That said, it is obviously possible for there to be hoax claims, but proving one claim to be a hoax does not disprove the theory. Vegasprof 14:31, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
While the Apollo Moon landings were certainly real, that's not to say that a conspiracy can't take place in the US. Laos and Cambodia were bombed in the same period without the knowledge of the American people.Ahuitzotl 11:36, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

THE TORRE BERT RECORDINGS PROVIDE STRONG EVIDENCE TO SHOW THAT GAGARIN WAS NOT THE FIRST MAN IN SPACE. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.66.84.43 (talk) 19:29, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

actually the Torre-Bert recordings dont provide strong evidence at all. Nevermind the fact that there's no hard proof, not even a hint, at these launches, its safe to say that just like any youtube video, these recordings could of been faked or misidentified. For all we know they made it up for fame. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.185.104 (talk) 08:41, 18 March 2008 (UTC)


Contents

[edit] Merge?

Merge into lost cosmonauts seems like a good idea to me. Bubba73 (talk), 00:11, 4 May 2006 (UTC)

I merged the two, and renamed. The incidents need to be rationalized and merged. For great justice. 22:52, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I don't especially like the new name. Bubba73 (talk), 23:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
I liked Lost Cosmonauts better. Tom Harrison Talk 23:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
Well, change it - I didn't like the old some people believe that Gagarin was not the first man in space or whatever it was. I changed it to be in line with the naming of the Apollo article. I agree that Lost Cosmonauts is more prosaic, but it makes the assumption that they are lost. I'm happy with you changing it, just trying to explain why I did it that way. For great justice. 23:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
No big hurry as far as I'm concerned; I'll at least wait and see what others think. Tom Harrison Talk 23:49, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
How about "Phantom cosmonauts", as the topic is called in one of the external links? Bubba73 (talk), 00:33, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

[edit] Alleged Nazi cosmonauts

I think some info about rumors that Nazi launched somebody (a suicide launch) in suborbital flight should be added.--Nixer 14:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

The only known manned rocket launch (sort of) in Nazi Germany was with the Bachem Ba 349 but this was only a rocket-powered interceptor aircraft. 84.190.137.237

[edit] Isn't the title of this article biased?

Isn't the term 'conspiracy theory' designed to make readers believe that the truthfulness of the allegations is lessened, by virtue of the unreliable nature of the persons making the allegations?

Wouldn't a better title be 'Alleged lost cosmonauts of the Soviet Space Program'? --Cloveoil 18:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes, Lost Cosmonauts makes more sense.Ricnun 20:09, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Its quite a cumbersome title. And it unfairly biases the reader against it before hand. Lost Cosmonauts is more of a neutral title. --Sexycaterpiller167 05:20, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

'Alleged' would make more sense considering there is no proof.

-G

[edit] Hoax accusations?

Bondarenko and Illyushen are real. As for the others, theres alot on the austronautix page about them, but some of the ones on there are works of fiction. It's good about telling you which ones however.

Bit harsh to suggest its a hoax.

[edit] This article sucks

Seriously. Half of it isn't cited at all, and the "phantom cosmonauts" supposedly lost in space are entirely fictional; there's absolutely no evidence to suggest they ever existed. Titanium Dragon 20:58, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Please explain the meaning of the phrase, "There's absolutely no evidence ... " If I take the sentence literally, it means that you are claiming that you have access to a summary of all evidence that exists on this subject, a rather strong claim. If you don't mean it literally, perhaps you mean something else. If so, what? Vegasprof 16:52, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
What I'm saying is that the way it is worded several imply that they were true/verified/accepted, whereas quite the opposite is true; there's no evidence to suggest these people ever flew (and in many cases, existed) and while people accused the USSR of pulling all sorts of shenanigans, there's no more evidence of the USSR having piles of dead cosmonauts as the US having piles of dead astronauts; indeed, there are no records of these at all, and the Russians have tended to be forthcoming about such things since the fall of the Soviet Union. This more or less disproved the "phantom cosmonauts". Having a "proven hoaxes" section implies the rest haven't been proven to be hoaxes, whereas the rest have been proven to be hoaxes and only a small number of people continue to believe in their existance. The fact that the other cosmonauts still alive still deny that these dead cosmonauts ever existed is even more damning to their existance. Titanium Dragon 09:22, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
I just finished reading most of the page containing stuff written by James Oberg in 1988, the one that is linked in the article. He expended a significant amount of effort trying to get to the truth of rumors of deaths of cosmonauts, and debunks some of them, while confirming the horrible death by high-oxygen fire of Valentin Bondarenko in 1961. But at the end of the page, he admits that he does not know everything. The page reinforces my previous knowledge that the Soviets generally tried very hard to cover up anything they felt was negative news, even to the point of trying to revise history by erasing faces of former cosmonauts from official photos. Yes, as we all know, Russia is currently much more open, but news stories (including the one yesterday that news outlets have been ordered to present at least 50% "positive" news about Russia) indicate that this tendency is far from gone. My conclusion: I have read a book, which seems to be a reliable source, that there were prior cosmonauts in orbit. Oberg, who spent a lot of effort, knows he didn't learn everything. Thus, it is impossible for anyone here to be sure that there is no evidence that it happened. At the present, I would call it a "plausible rumor." Given the still considerable secrecy of present-day Russia, the truth might not be known to the rest of the world for years, if ever. Vegasprof 11:10, 23 April 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Copyright issues

It seems that some parts of the article are copied verbatim from other sites. For example, the section about Igor Fedrov is copy/pasted from this page.

I'm going to try to hunt and delete all violations in the next few days. --Daggerstab 08:04, 23 April 2007 (UTC)