Talk:Source (river or stream)

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[edit] Split

This article may need to be split into Headwaters and Source (river or stream). Comments of others. Cuvette 04:01, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is no concuurence on split, the article should be renamed "Headwaters" which is the literature term used. No need for the awkward parens when there is a perfectly good term available. Cuvette 19:53, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Source is the most widespread and the most specific term in geography and hydrology in the context of "river source." Headwaters is generally less specific, plural, and less well defined.
So the title should remain "Source". Headwaters could be a different article, I suppose, but I think having it redirect to here as at present is the most sensible.DLinth (talk) 20:36, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

[edit] Terminology question

If two named rivers, say East River and West River, join and become South River, what is the usual terminology?

Are East and West Rivers the source of South River?

Or are they the headwaters of South River?

Does South River have headwaters at all?

Are the headwaters of East and West Rivers the headwaters of South River? Thank you. Wanderer57 03:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

[edit] Lake?

We've had a rename and broadening of definition to include lakes, with no discussion, and no source to support it. I intend to revert unless we get a source real soon now. Dicklyon (talk) 04:14, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I searched around and could find no definition or example of this usage with respect to lakes, so I reverted all that and moved the page back to it's original name. We can go back if a reliable source is presented here first, but to be polite, an opportunity to discuss a move first would also be appreciated. Dicklyon (talk) 05:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

It's common English usage:
  • "...the Owens River, the source of the lake..." [1], publication of the Environmental Protection Agency
  • "...source of the lake is Kao-Ping Creek..." [2], an academic paper (the first five pages are in Chinese, but the hundred-plus pages of the rest of the paper are in English)
  • "...the source of the lake is the Mahandi River" [3]
  • "Main source of the lake is waterfall Savica" [4]
  • "The source of the lake is Six Mile Creek." [5]
  • "...source of the lake is the Little Red River..." [6]
  • "...water source of the lake is Orontes River..." [7]
  • "...principal source of the lake is the Kissimmee River..." [8]
  • "The lake source is the snow and glaciers, not a river." [9]
  • "The lake's source is the spring-fed Piel Creek..." [10]
  • "The lake's source is from the runoff of Stone Dam Creek, Gold Creek, Palarm Creek, Little Cypress Creek and Panther Creek." [11]
—Lowellian (reply) 14:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the examples. I don't find these informal uses compelling, in terms of broadening the definition and moving the page. Some discussion is still in order. All the dictionary definition talk of rivers and streams, which is the meaning that this article was about. The informal use of source with other things is off topic, in my opinion. Others? Dicklyon (talk) 15:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't at all agree with your characterization of these uses as "informal". I've shown usage within a publication of the Environmental Protection Agency and an academic paper, which are definitely serious and "formal" sources. —Lowellian (reply) 08:00, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
The sources are formal, but the usage is not. There's no dictionary definition that supports this informal use as source as being related to the well-defined "source" of a river or stream. It's a broader definition that you made up. Dicklyon (talk) 15:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Since you still haven't made a move proposal or solicited discussion on it, and since there is opposition (me), I've moved the article back to its original title for now. Make a move proposal if you think the expanded definition is supportable. Dicklyon (talk) 16:37, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

In support of my opposition, note that in books, "source of the river" and "river's source" are common, and almost always used in the sense defined in the article; "source of river" somewhat less consistent, but still similar. On the other hand, "source of the lake" or "lake's source" or "source of lake" is much less common, and is almost always used in a different sense, as in "source of the lake's water", "source of the Lake Superior iron ores", "source of lake supply", "Lake's source",, "the lake's source of water", etc. And there has not been any source cited to back up your definition explicitly, whereas all dictionaries define source of a river. Dicklyon (talk) 16:54, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I created a new article, inflow (hydrology), to deal with the usage as applied to lakes. I'm willing to leave this article at your preferred title, "source (river or stream)". —Lowellian (reply) 19:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I think that's much better. Be sure to add some sources there. Dicklyon (talk) 21:55, 30 May 2008 (UTC)