Talk:Solemn Mass

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The term Solemn Mass was traditionally used in the U.S. just check the Baltimore Ceremonial, or any other guide to the ceremonies of the Mass. The Cathoilic Encyclopedia was primarily a British production with lots of articles from British experts like Adrian Fortescue.. (unsigned contribution by MiguelJoseErnst)

...but, unless I am mistaken, was published and used mainly in the United States of America.

In any case, why choose for Wikipedia a usage that seems to have been limited to one English-speaking country and that appears not to have been without rival even in that country. When and where I grew up and studied and was ordained, before the Second Vatican Council, nobody ever understood by High Mass anything other than what in Latin is called Missa solemnis; and we knew the Missa Cantata, and never imagined that anyone anywhere called it a high Mass. This is true not only of Britain and Ireland, but also of Australia and New Zealand, and no doubt of most if not all English-speaking countries except the United States. Isn't Wikipedia meant to be international, not just American? It seems logical therefore to use the international terms principally, adding a note about the different usage, which you assure me about, in one country.

Lima 20:32, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yo're right. I probably should write the article to conform to wider English usage. The one point, I simply wanted to stress is that the term does exist and is widely used and is more in conformity with the Latin usage. I have lived most of my life in the Archdioceses of Philadelphia and Los Angeles and have never heard the term High Mass applied to anything but a Missa Cantata. This is still the case among the SSPX churches and indult priets I have known at my parishes and in my travels. The only people I've ever heard use the term High Mass refer to a missa solemnis are the Anglicans.

MiguelJoseErnst

The English-speaking world is wider than Philadelphia and Los Angeles and the whole of the United States of America. And isn't the article in the Catholic Encyclopedia more authoritative than anything else you have at hand? Lima 18:48, 22 January 2006 (UTC)


[edit] Term also used in reference to the new rite

This term "Solemn Mass" is also commonly used in reference to Masses celebrated according to the reformed missal of Paul VI - at least it is on this side of the Atlantic (UK). Although small parish churches don't usually use the term, major city churches and cathedral churches often do.

As someone previously mentioned, the term "high Mass" was commonly used in Britain and other English-speaking countries prior to Vatican II. But in Britain that term largely fell into disuse in favour of "Solemn Mass" (a term previously rarely used) or "Sung Mass" after the council.

Examples:


Markanthony1980, 10 December 2006

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OK, but let's recall that "sung Mass" (Missa cantata) and "solen Mass" (Missa solemnis) were two different things: the first referred to Mass chanted by a single priest rather than said, the second to Mass celebrated with the assistance of deacon and subdeacon. The modern GIRM doesn't make this same distinction, preferring a fuzzier set of gradations between Masses celebrated simply, and those celebrated "with more solemnity," -- there is no bright line. For instance, a simple weekday 15 minute "said" Mass might now include the help of a permanent deacon and 10 priests living in a community, while a grand all-parts-sung-with-choir extravaganza might well be celebrated by a single priest alone with many lay people taking various roles. Thus, "high Mass" or "solemn Mass" today usually refers to the degree of hoopla (you'll pardon) surrounding the celebration rather than any specific liturgical definition.HarvardOxon 03:41, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

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That's true, but the term is still widely used in reference to the new rite hence the current definition found in this article is inaccurate and misleading.

Markanthony1980 20:19 GMT, 11 December 2006

Nowadays, unless I am mistaken, "Solemn Mass" really means no more than "a solemn Mass", a Mass celebrated solemnly, with elements such as participation by a choir, perhaps a deacon, more servers ..., but still a Mass celebrated according to exactly the same rules that apply to any celebration of Mass.
In the past, "Solemn Mass" (or "High Mass") was not just a phrase used to describe a Mass celebrated with solemnity It was a technical term referring to a form of Mass that had rigid rules, decisively distinct from the rules that governed "Low Mass". The "Tridentine Missal" printed the distinct rules governing Solemn Mass (in the technical sense it then had) after the rules governing Low Mass and in italics. The article is about Solemn Mass in that technical sense, not just about a Mass that is solemn. Lima 14:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
As an enyclopedic article it should really consider all common usages of the term it proposes to explain. In my part of the world (quite a seismic portion of the English-speaking world) the term is commonly used in reference to the new mass - certainly much more so than it is in reference to the old, which is now celebrated in only a tiny number of locations. Therefore, it would seem to me that the article should make mention of this or be given a more restrictive title, e.g., "Solemn Mass: Tridentine Rite."
Markanthony1980 01:18 GMT, 17 December 2006
The examples Markantony gave do not indicate a separate category of Mass, as was the case with "Solemn/High Mass" used as a technical term to distinguish that clearly identified form of Mass from other no less clearly identified forms (Low Mass, and the in-between Missa Cantata or Sung Mass), which were all distinguished by discontinuous rituals, unlike the present form of Mass, which, without changing its identity, can add or remove elements of solemnity to whatever extent is considered appropriate in the concrete pastoral circumstances. "Solemn Mass" (like "Solemn Vespers") in the examples Markanthony gave clearly means just a Mass celebrated with solemnity, a solemn Mass, no more a distinct category of Mass than a quick Mass, a slow Mass, a noisy Mass, a quiet Mass, a Tagalog Mass, an Arabic Mass, a devout Mass, a well-prepared Mass, or any other description you may wish to apply to a celebration of Mass. Lima 15:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)